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Re: Torosaurus = Triceratops? « Reply #40 on Oct 19, 2009, 9:22pm »
I am still wondering why there are so many 'female" solid frilled trike specimens, and almost no "male" specimens? The ratio of triceratops vs torosaurus just seems to be so ovewhelming, and does not make a lot of sense to me. Also, wasn't there a recent study that "proved" that trikes were jousting with their horns, presumably for mates. They cited several instances of horn damage, and it would now seem contradictory, if these were indeed immature or female animals....
The ratio of triceratops vs torosaurus just seems to be so ovewhelming, and does not make a lot of sense to me.
The article originally linked to by Kuni referenced this as being the main problem with the theory:
"But the finding raises the question of why fossil hunters have recovered so few of the mature “Torosaurus” specimens—fewer than a dozen, compared to the many dozens of younger Triceratops. “If Torosaurus is Triceratops, then we’re finding a lot of animals that had a lot of growing up to do,” Scannella comments. Insights may come once researchers determine a more precise age at death for the individuals."
It certainly is a real problem with the theory, one that will require the presentation of some major morphological similarities between Torosaurus species and Triceratops species (presumably the type species in each case).
Joined: Aug 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 3,929 Location: New Jersey
Re: Torosaurus = Triceratops? « Reply #42 on Oct 19, 2009, 9:33pm »
Does anyone know if there is evidence of other ceratopsians being drastically sexually dimorphic? I know male protoceratops were believed to have more robust faces but what about some of the more wacky species from like the Campanian. Styracosaurus? Pachyrhinosaurus? Anybody know about these guys by any chance?
Re: Torosaurus = Triceratops? « Reply #43 on Oct 19, 2009, 9:57pm »
If the horns and frills are indeed display traits, you would certainly expect sexual dimorphism. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to find solid evidence for dimorphism unless you have a lot of specimens, so we'll probably never know for most ceratopsians.
If the horns and frills are indeed display traits, you would certainly expect sexual dimorphism. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to find solid evidence for dimorphism unless you have a lot of specimens, so we'll probably never know for most ceratopsians.
Joined: Apr 2008 Gender: Female Posts: 1,005 Location: Oak Grove, OR
Re: Torosaurus = Triceratops? « Reply #45 on Oct 20, 2009, 9:22am »
Just saying, without addressing anything anyone else has said:
I'm not sure if I'm for or against this theory yet, but if it is indeed true that Triceratops and Torosaurus are indeed the same species, here is what I think: Triceratops, the females, would make sense to have thick dense frills because they may be the ones to defend and protect the young. they would need the most defense against predators, because they would be particularly aggressive when defending young. Torosaurus, the males, would need less robust frills because ideally they would really only use their frills for sexual display (in my opinion, this is obvioulsy not fact lol) it would make sense that their excessively large frills would have huge holes in them that way, to lighten the load when they don't really need extreme defense against predators as much as the females may. (since the females would take the brunt both for themselves AND their offpspring)
also, if males had holes but they still participated in sparring, the holes seem to be farther up the frill where the orbital horns couldn't really reach anyway, so I don't think there would be much risk of tearing flesh in the holes in the frill. you know?
I am still wondering why there are so many 'female" solid frilled trike specimens, and almost no "male" specimens? The ratio of triceratops vs torosaurus just seems to be so ovewhelming, and does not make a lot of sense to me. Also, wasn't there a recent study that "proved" that trikes were jousting with their horns, presumably for mates. They cited several instances of horn damage, and it would now seem contradictory, if these were indeed immature or female animals....
from my observations just in this area, and in other animals in the world, there seem to be many more females than males in animal popluations. Even humans. this obviously ish't a rule, but it seems to be more common than complete 50/50 equality, or even more males than females.
The ratio of triceratops vs torosaurus just seems to be so ovewhelming, and does not make a lot of sense to me.
The article originally linked to by Kuni referenced this as being the main problem with the theory:
"But the finding raises the question of why fossil hunters have recovered so few of the mature “Torosaurus” specimens—fewer than a dozen, compared to the many dozens of younger Triceratops. “If Torosaurus is Triceratops, then we’re finding a lot of animals that had a lot of growing up to do,” Scannella comments. Insights may come once researchers determine a more precise age at death for the individuals."
It certainly is a real problem with the theory, one that will require the presentation of some major morphological similarities between Torosaurus species and Triceratops species (presumably the type species in each case).
it would make sense to me that a lot of animals would die young, without reaching potential maturity, even in the dinosaur age. you know? humans, before modern medicine, didn't survive much past their 40's. why wouldn't it be the same for dinosaurs? or any other animal without science and medicine? animals today survive to the fullest potential of old age in captivity, where their diseases are treated and their food is provided. animals in the wild are in a constant struggle to survive, and many induviduals do not reach old age. of course it does happen! but not as often. I don't see why it wouldn't be the case here.
AGIAN this is completely unscientific pondering. take this with a grain of salt, I haven't slept for a couple days. sorry.
If the horns and frills are indeed display traits, you would certainly expect sexual dimorphism. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to find solid evidence for dimorphism unless you have a lot of specimens, so we'll probably never know for most ceratopsians.
Those massive horns just as display devices?!
Ah, really unlikely
Because massive horns are uncommon as display devices in the animal kingdom? They certainly could be defense too, though everyone seems to forget that ceratopsian beaks were nasty - a predator could get bitten, too.
Because massive horns are uncommon as display devices in the animal kingdom? They certainly could be defense too, though everyone seems to forget that ceratopsian beaks were nasty - a predator could get bitten, too.
I agree, but if an animal has such bigass horns, he'll sure as hell use 'em against a foe
Joined: Aug 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 3,929 Location: New Jersey
Re: Torosaurus = Triceratops? « Reply #49 on Oct 21, 2009, 3:19am »
Display ornaments often double as weapons or the other way around. Buffalo horns, moose/elk antlers, heck I have even seen a thompson's gazelle bend its head all the way down and charge a foe with its horns. Sure, ceratopsians def could have used horns as a sexual or age display, but they probably wouldn't hesitate to give a tyrannosaur a good poke with them either if they needed to. They def could have bit too. Animals are allowed to have more than one strategy of defense in their arsenal.
@Mhorridus / Dacht jij dat de dinosauriërs uitgestorven waren?
Joined: Aug 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 5,449 Location: UK
Re: Torosaurus = Triceratops? « Reply #56 on Oct 25, 2009, 11:21pm »
Well, it was the male of a certain Triceratops species, according to Horner et al. Either that, or it was a Triceratops species itself. Either that, or it was Torosaurus...
With regard to the above Homo skulls, the first is H. neanderthalensis and the second is H. sapiens, which are different species, not races.
Also, with regard to this whole series of posts, I was a bit drunk and you should probably ignore them...
Re: Torosaurus = Triceratops? « Reply #57 on Oct 26, 2009, 1:07pm »
We need much more definitive proof to even entertain this possibility. I don't see anything so far to make me think it is even possible. It's as remote as TRex scavenging its whole life.
It makes no sense at all that a displaying male would be physically smaller than the females. It makes no sense at all that the females would primarily do the protecting; that has always been primarily the male's job among herbivorous mammals, hasn't it? ESPECIALLY displaying ones!
Ceratopsians are alot more comparable to mammals and birds than they are to reptiles.
If Jack Horner is going to make this fly thru his student, then they need to present really incontrovertible evidence. It appears that the evidence is as shaky as the Trex scav "theory".
Ceratopsians are alot more comparable to mammals and birds than they are to reptiles.
You made some good points, but how can we be sure about this? There is certainly their erect posture and presumably active lifestlye, and evidence for gregarious behaviour among some ceratopsians, but we just don't know how reptilian they were (their brain casts appear reptilian, but that doesn't preclude behaviour reminiscent of mammals or birds either). Really these animals were like nothing alive today, and we know precious little about their behaviour.
If Jack Horner is going to make this fly thru his student, then they need to present really incontrovertible evidence. It appears that the evidence is as shaky as the Trex scav "theory".
The T-Rex theory didn't have much to back it up beyond Horner. The Toro-Tri study has morphological and microscopic evidence from the bones themselves.
You may not like Horner, but there's a huge difference between the two ideas here.
Perhaps you should read the thread again - we discuss male-female size differences and morphological differences between males and females of extant species. This is really not such a far-fetched idea.
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They certainly could be defense too, though everyone seems to forget that ceratopsian beaks were nasty - a predator could get bitten, too.
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