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I know the kind of *other* bloggers you are talking about Sid, cant stand those people.
Glad you agree with me on this
Geez, there's especially one of 'em, a guy from Italy just like me, who recently dedicated many of his posts to nothing more than making fun (in a very childish way, i must add) of the "simple" dinosaur fans... For him, dinosaurs and prehistory in general should be discussed ONLY by the specialists, totally ignoring the general public, kids, etc... What a jerk!
Re: Proof of Evolution « Reply #41 on Nov 7, 2009, 8:12pm »
And is he himself even a "specialist". Does he have any experience in the field, much less a degree in anything regarding dinosaurs or at the very least have a formal education under his belt to be making fun of others the way you say he is?
Everyone should be entitled to express their ideas and theories regardless. Thats how new experts are born.
Re: Proof of Evolution « Reply #42 on Nov 7, 2009, 9:53pm »
I think Kevin got a very clear and good exposed point there about evolution.
Btw, Sid, sorry about that kind of situations. But as I said, fighting with a retard will only turn you into a retard. Usually, all the attacks these people do can fairly easily be thrown to them effectively as griffin did. And as you said, he was insulting you calling you childish, when he was actually acting in a childish way.
I think Kevin got a very clear and good exposed point there about evolution.
Btw, Sid, sorry about that kind of situations. But as I said, fighting with a retard will only turn you into a retard. Usually, all the attacks these people do can fairly easily be thrown to them effectively as griffin did. And as you said, he was insulting you calling you childish, when he was actually acting in a childish way.
Threat him like what he is: an annoying kid.
Wait woah woah what? You don't think I was attacking anyone do you? I was inferring about the person Sid was talking about who had his own blog and was making fun of other people. Your wording really confused me.
Wait woah woah what? You don't think I was attacking anyone do you? I was inferring about the person Sid was talking about who had his own blog and was making fun of other people. Your wording really confused me.
? Nononono, wait???
Man, sometimes I just can't be sure if my english is correct or just a babbling...
No, griffin, no not at all! What I tried to say was that the guy who made fun out of Sid saying Sid was a immature, that idiot was acting like an immature.
And that I have seen that very clear, with your commentary!
The idiot said: "The dinosaur fans aren't specialists" and then you said: "Ok, but he isn't a specialist either".
What I meant was, what that guy used to insult was something that could actually be said about him. You know, his attack was actually his defect.
Your commentary actually inspired mine, griffin... Fact that instead of understanding that, made you feel I was critizicing you, reveals I do need to express myself better
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 68 Location: Minnesota
Re: Proof of Evolution « Reply #49 on Nov 8, 2009, 9:25pm »
Quote:
I think that this argument revolves closely to a teaching of Douglas Adams:
Humans think they are smarter than dolphins because we build cars and buildings and start wars etc...and all that dolphins do is swim in the water, eat fish and play around. Dolphins believe that they are smarter for exactly the same reasons.
It's called species relativism--depending on you situation, every living thing has talents/abilities/skills/genetics that no other can match. Apes may not have fire, but a human would be hard pressed to use their feet to help get through the treetops their entire lives without ever going to the ground.
This is where I have to disagree with Adams (though one should never take him too seriously); it's not just that humans 'think we are smarter' it's that no other species can even consider it's characteristics as a species in compairson with other species. That not only makes us 'smarter', but that gives us an insight that exists in no other creature.
In short there is no evidence either dolphins or apes believe anything about themselves or others.
Re: Proof of Evolution « Reply #50 on Nov 8, 2009, 10:15pm »
But, as absurd as it would sound for some, we can't be sure that a certain animal (a dolphin, a lion, a shark, a croc, etc) don't consider or think about the other species... I'm not trying to "humanize" 'em (an error we MUST avoid) or to say that a Great White Shark wonders why apes like us like to swim in the ocean ( ), but i'm sure that they are at least a bit curious about other animals
Re: Proof of Evolution « Reply #51 on Nov 9, 2009, 12:53am »
Weeeell, humans we "think we are smarter" is a comparison, that sentence would be followed by a "THAN".
We have a brain that separates, clasifies and compares.
But that is a tool.
And it's artificial, because this kind of judgement doesn't exist in Nature. For Nature, "passer domesticus" doesn't mean a thing. For Nature, 13:26 A.M. doesn't mean a thing. For Nature, a colored flag and the frontier between 2 countries doesn't mean a thing. For nature "stronger" or "smarter" than X doesn't mean a thing.
We do need all these artificial creations to survive, and we need them so badly that we have started believing they are ultimately real, but these weren't before we humans came.
Also being so "intelligent" have it's price: we are indeed the most vulnerable creature to depression and brain sickness ever. That's why it's so hard to accept we are extremely weak compared with the rest of animals, therefore we need crutches to create illusions of power that allow us to survive ("we are the smartest creature ever"... well, yeah but we are also extremely weak in other things...)
And for Nature the EGO ("I") doesn't exist either. Ego is an evolved thing that happens (apparently) only in us. We are able to clasify even ourselves, we can separate our own self in parts and judge ourselves.
The Ego helps us to survive but it also helps us to destroy and hurt ourselves. It's weird Nature has created something like masochism (in all it's terms), but it's a consecuence of the strange hability we have of dissassociate ourselves. Animals are "one piece", but we humans we have been separated in several pieces, disconected from the whole.
We aren't better, we simply have developed talents/abilities/skills/genetics different to any other creature ever in this planet. But the price of it is also high, do you think a dolphin would say he envy us???
Now, YES we are special. But that doesn't mean better or worst. It just means unique. But weren't the bacteries of Mars unique too?
We can destroy the whole planet, same as we can also save it from ourselves. We have RESPONSIBILITY of our own destiny. That is the only thing that really make us different, we have a wider range of action to conserve ourselves -or to destroy ourselves-.
Because in the end, as Ian Malcom said in the book, Nature doesn't really care if we destroy ourselves, she will recover because time for her is nothing. We are just rare, some "freaks" among the rest of living creatures, but in the end as mortal as flies.
Joined: Aug 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 1,011 Location: UK
Re: Proof of Evolution « Reply #52 on Nov 9, 2009, 1:10am »
We're not extremely weak at all. We've proven to be highly resilient and adaptable over thousands of years. We've outlived Homo neanderthalensis, for one. Our toolmaking is our strength, much as it has resulted in so much destruction (which may ultimately be our downfall).
You talk about "illusions of power" - but they aren't illusions. We really are quite capable of massive destruction and wiping out entire species. Indeed, we continue to do so. That might be an awful power to have, but it is power.
We've done some awful things as a species, but we've also accomplished a lot. An example that I will continually bring up is that we've been to the freakin' moon. One could hope that we'll get it right in the end, unlikely as that sometimes seems! Hating the human race, or viewing them as inferior to other animals, is a dangerous road to go down. This isn't to undermine the rights of animals (far from it), but we need to have compassion towards our fellow human beings.
Aha, I see you've added some more. Well, I'd like to point out that Ian Malcolm says in the original JP that we're incapable of "destroying the planet" - when talking to Hammond about his delusions of grandeur.
Regarding the 'high price' of intelligence - a price worth paying surely? A dolphin will never appreciate the scale of the Universe as we can, will never have that understanding of 'creation'. It's something worth being alive - and a human - for. Arguably.
As an aside, funny you should mention Malcolm referring to humans as evolutionary 'freaks', which I presume he did in one of his morphine-induced rants, and I did a couple of months back in an alcohol-induced rant. Apparently the person I was with didn't have a problem with me ranting about evolution and cod-philosophising for 2 hours...they are patient.
Re: Proof of Evolution « Reply #54 on Nov 9, 2009, 1:28am »
We are extremely weak speaking roughly. I mean, go put a naked man in a desert island: he is the weakest creatue compared with any animal, in the sense that we have no fur, fangs or claws. We can't eat corrupted food, and we are extremely sensible to fear and psychological problems. I mentioned that not to put human beings below the rest of creatures, but to combate the idea that humans are indeed up in the top of the list.
On the other hand, we have find a way of building "fangs", "furs" and we prepare our own food, etc etc. Yeah, but these are artificial crutches.
Not denying the value of "artificial crutches". ART indeed is an artificial crutch. But they are not better, not worse than "nattually evolved genetics". Only the material they are made is different.
Now, there's real power involved there, you are right Horridus. Artifdicial creation is not a silly thing. It's necessary to concentrate A LOT of energy to create something that didn't previously existed on Nature. For sure. It's the reason why we love and respect artists and people who make their "artificial creations" with a high quaility: it's a reminder of our true power.
But, man, we also use "illusions of power" to not to see our weakness. The Ego is everything but clarity and truth. We as humans delete the truth several times, we close our eyes to not feel bad about a lot of things and go forward. The (stupid) fear is that sometimes reality can kill us. So to avoid that and survive, we are becoming dumber and dumber. We live, indeed, in a global culture where the ultimate objective as a species is becoming bumber and dumber, and blinder and blinder.
Other members of our species doesn't agree with that objective, they (I like to think i'm one of them) doesn't feel becoming dumber is a good way of survival. So, we try to be more and more awaken, to ultimately survive better. (Hard work, I myself am programmed to become dumber and dumber with time )
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 68 Location: Minnesota
Re: Proof of Evolution « Reply #55 on Nov 9, 2009, 2:20am »
Quote:
But, as absurd as it would sound for some, we can't be sure that a certain animal (a dolphin, a lion, a shark, a croc, etc) don't consider or think about the other species... I'm not trying to "humanize" 'em (an error we MUST avoid) or to say that a Great White Shark wonders why apes like us like to swim in the ocean ( ), but i'm sure that they are at least a bit curious about other animals
Oh I am sure most animals with a brain are aware of other organisms, and aware of course whether that other organism is a potential mate, or predator, or food.
I haven't seen any evidence though to suggest any other organism other than humans is aware of themselves as a 'type' and aware of other organisms as a 'type' - and considered those other organisms when measuring there own capabilities.
Of course, like many things for which there is no evidence, I also cannot say that it cannot be so - I just don't have any reason at this point to believe it is so. So far we seem unique in this regard, and I think this is one thing of many that sets us apart as creatures.
We are extremely weak speaking roughly. I mean, go put a naked man in a desert island: he is the weakest creatue compared with any animal, in the sense that we have no fur, fangs or claws. We can't eat corrupted food, and we are extremely sensible to fear and psychological problems. I mentioned that not to put human beings below the rest of creatures, but to combate the idea that humans are indeed up in the top of the list.
On the other hand, we have find a way of building "fangs", "furs" and we prepare our own food, etc etc. Yeah, but these are artificial crutches.
I don't see what the issue is with these 'artificial crutches'. Yes, you wouldn't win a boxing match with a gorilla, but humans could survive on a desert island through sheer brainpower and ingenuity - and there's nothing 'artificial' about that, it's the result of millions of years of evolution. We might not be immensely physically strong, but it is our ingenuity and adaptability that has enabled us to survive and dominate.
Re: Proof of Evolution « Reply #57 on Nov 9, 2009, 5:15pm »
Put any random person naked in a desert island and is dead in no more than 2 weeks. These millions of years of evolution aren't written in our genetic code. That person won't even know how to make a fire.
Of course i'm talking about a random person. Not some unique like Chuck Norris who would make a bazooka out of a coconut and nuke the sea creating a passage like Moses and then would walk back to Texas by foot.
Every "artificial" thing is natural. Because it's made out of natural resources. But "artificial" means manipulated by man to give something an use that wasn't conceived by nature to have. Like manipulating stones to be used as knives. Animals built "artificial" things too, like beavers' houses or bird nests.
Difference is we don't know how to do these things unless we are taught by others who know. That is actually a huge genetical disadvantage which would clearly be shown as that in case of forced to survive in primitive conditions withput any technology help.
Yes, we evolved pretty fast, we fly and breath underwater, but we pay the price of not owning that knowledges. We need to writte that knowledge in books, instead in our genetic code. That's what I call "crutches". But maybe that is a too negative word.
Ultimately what I wanted to point is objectively we aren't that good, only unique.
Subjectively? I LOVE man. With all their defects and idioticy, I do love this motherf**king species.
Re: Proof of Evolution « Reply #58 on Nov 9, 2009, 5:37pm »
Totally agree with Foxilized regarding the weakness of our species!
But, despite what he says, i don't love humankind. Really, if there's an animal i am REALLY close to hate... Ok, i REALLY HATE for an helluva lot of reasons, that's us.
I don't know anything. I've been eating cotton candy and hanging out at the batting cage (Velma)
Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 3,052 Location: Cypress Hills Formation, SK
Re: Proof of Evolution « Reply #59 on Nov 9, 2009, 5:57pm »
Humans are not weak just because they can't survive every environment as they are. That would be like faulting whales for being poorly adapted to forest life.
Like all living things, humans have adaptations that allow survival in certain situations--but part of that meant evolving the ability to manipulate objects and environments to suit their needs (and humans are not the only species that can do these things).
Put any random person naked in a desert island and is dead in no more than 2 weeks. These millions of years of evolution aren't written in our genetic code. That person won't even know how to make a fire.
Of course i'm talking about a random person. Not some unique like Chuck Norris who would make a bazooka out of a coconut and nuke the sea creating a passage like Moses and then would walk back to Texas by foot.
Every "artificial" thing is natural. Because it's made out of natural resources. But "artificial" means manipulated by man to give something an use that wasn't conceived by nature to have. Like manipulating stones to be used as knives. Animals built "artificial" things too, like beavers' houses or bird nests.
Difference is we don't know how to do these things unless we are taught by others who know. That is actually a huge genetical disadvantage which would clearly be shown as that in case of forced to survive in primitive conditions withput any technology help.
Yes, we evolved pretty fast, we fly and breath underwater, but we pay the price of not owning that knowledges. We need to writte that knowledge in books, instead in our genetic code. That's what I call "crutches". But maybe that is a too negative word.
Ultimately what I wanted to point is objectively we aren't that good, only unique.
Subjectively? I LOVE man. With all their defects and idioticy, I do love this motherf**king species.
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