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Re: Triceratops + Torosaurus = Same Dinosaur « Reply #81 on Oct 12, 2010, 8:56pm »
But it's not a so unbased assumption, I think. He always was a media man, and he always consciously tried to sound "sensationalistic". And he himself explained it's a way to obtain media attention because very often the researchs don't have enough economical support. That part of him is not a secret, and he himself admitted it.
If joined to that, same time he also believes in this new theory with all his heart, I just don't know. If he's a half decent man with a sense of self-dignity (as I wish he is) he surely believes in it.
Joined: May 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 1,669 Location: Oregon, USA
Re: Triceratops + Torosaurus = Same Dinosaur « Reply #82 on Oct 13, 2010, 7:39pm »
Maybe this has been mentioned already, but Greg Paul's new book lists torosaurus as the probable adult form or triceratops. However, he doesn't offer any explanation as to why this is probable, nor does he offer any illustrations of skulls in between "triceratops" and "torosaurus"--just illustrations of the usual tric growth stages leading up to what we would consider an adult tric, and then out of nowhere, a torosaur skull.
@Mhorridus / Dacht jij dat de dinosauriërs uitgestorven waren?
Joined: Aug 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 5,449 Location: UK
Re: Triceratops + Torosaurus = Same Dinosaur « Reply #83 on Oct 13, 2010, 7:46pm »
Paul's a lumper in a big way, but he does say "frill [of T. horridus] probably elongates greatly with maturity as large openings develop in at least one sex". My emphasis. Even he doesn't seem 100% certain; just, you know, 90% certain.
Joined: May 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 1,669 Location: Oregon, USA
Re: Triceratops + Torosaurus = Same Dinosaur « Reply #84 on Oct 13, 2010, 9:30pm »
Why Torosaurus though? It looks about as much like a tric as everything else does. Is there any evidence other than "these two lived at the same time and no young toros have ever been found"? Where are the "in between" stages?
Joined: May 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 1,669 Location: Oregon, USA
Re: Triceratops + Torosaurus = Same Dinosaur « Reply #86 on Oct 28, 2010, 7:58am »
The skulls of many, many animals look virtually identical, particularly if crushed and then fossilized for a few million years.. By the same token, the skulls of the same animal can look very, very different based on age and/or gender.
Joined: Aug 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 3,929 Location: New Jersey
Re: Triceratops + Torosaurus = Same Dinosaur « Reply #89 on Oct 28, 2010, 3:27pm »
Yeah same I think a grizzly and panda is a pretty bad example since...er they look different. I'm a fan of the macaw species example since they do look virtually identical at the skeleton level and also they live in the same general geographical area.
@Mhorridus / Dacht jij dat de dinosauriërs uitgestorven waren?
Joined: Aug 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 5,449 Location: UK
Re: Triceratops + Torosaurus = Same Dinosaur « Reply #90 on Oct 28, 2010, 3:55pm »
Regarding the second quote (paraphrasing?) - "If the two skulls look similar, it's the same dinosaur" - he probably means at a generic level rather than a specific level. Generic distinctions are pretty arbitrary anyway, so it's just Horner making his position clear as a lumper.
"You can take the skull of a Grizzly bear and the skull of a Panda bear and they would look virtually identical".
(quote taken from "The Winston Effect" book)
TEN YEARS LATER, Horner on 2010:
"If two skulls look similar, then it's the same dinosaur".
WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED WITH THIS GUY ON THESE 10 YEARS?????????????
Anyway, this theory looks to me just another try by Horner to prove that in the Maastrichtian there were just few dinosaur species... Bullnut, if you trust my word; heck, today in Africa, in the same plains, roam MANY species of antelopes and such, why shouldn't be the same for ceratopsids (or any other dinosaur group?), considering they had much, MUCH more territory than modern animals?
Then again, Horner should explain to us why Triceratops, becoming "Torosaurus", shrink of at least 2 friggin' meters (Trike is usually 9 meters long, while Toro is 7 meters long at best)... Usually an animal becomes bigger as he's growing older.
Truth can only be found by hearing both sides of the story....
Joined: Dec 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 295 Location: Idaho USA
Re: Triceratops + Torosaurus = Same Dinosaur « Reply #92 on Oct 28, 2010, 5:27pm »
Then again, Horner should explain to us why Triceratops, becoming "Torosaurus", shrink of at least 2 friggin' meters (Trike is usually 9 meters long, while Toro is 7 meters long at best)... Usually an animal becomes bigger as he's growing older.
[/quote]
That's a very interesting point! If the trike becomes more and more like a Torosaurus as he becomes older (evidence and modern observation is clear as you stated that reptiles continue to grow throughout their lives meaning that larger is usually older) than it is opposite of what is believed in this case since Trikes are generally larger than Toros... Agreed...
« Last Edit: Oct 28, 2010, 6:33pm by thelordsgym »
Joined: Sept 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 334 Location: Spain
Re: Triceratops + Torosaurus = Same Dinosaur « Reply #93 on Oct 28, 2010, 6:10pm »
Well, the first author of the paper, the main scientist and the conductor of the field work, is not Horner but John Scannella. Son don't blame (just) Horner
Re: Triceratops + Torosaurus = Same Dinosaur « Reply #94 on Oct 28, 2010, 7:29pm »
Lol, pretty bad example, yeah... I suppose he meant two fossilized bear skulls would look identical because of deformations on the process, as Seijun noted. Yet it serves to contradict his late self even more...
Anyway, has anybody read the actual paper? Surely all these too obvious incoherences must be explained there, like the sizes thing... It's hard to believe these men are risking their credit with a theory with so many big holes on it...
Well, the first author of the paper, the main scientist and the conductor of the field work, is not Horner but John Scannella. Son don't blame (just) Horner
Scanella is the student of Horner, therefore, he was likely 'encouraged' in this direction by Horner. Except that his career is just starting...or was, depending on how all of this pans out.
Scanella is the student of Horner, therefore, he was likely 'encouraged' in this direction by Horner.
That's likely, yes. But he is not a zombie, he's author of his research thesis, and responsible of it. I think he deserves some "respect" or aknowledge, even if we are going to criticize their work. "Scanella and Horner"
@Mhorridus / Dacht jij dat de dinosauriërs uitgestorven waren?
Joined: Aug 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 5,449 Location: UK
Re: Triceratops + Torosaurus = Same Dinosaur « Reply #98 on Oct 29, 2010, 1:09pm »
Yeah, some specimens that are presumed to be the Triceratops we've known in the past may in fact represent Torosaurus/sexually mature Triceratops male remains. It's not like they find a whole skeleton every time.
Yeah, some specimens that are presumed to be the Triceratops we've known in the past may in fact represent Torosaurus/sexually mature Triceratops male remains. It's not like they find a whole skeleton every time.
This i agree (for example the "Trike" at the New York Natural History Museum could be actually a Torosaurus, considering the guy's skull was badly broken and was restored using other Triceratops specimens as reference, if i remember the story well), but saying that Torosaurus as a species is JUST the older form of Triceratops, with no other hypotesis considered, is just bad paleontology... Next time what they'll say? That Styracosaurus is the older form of Centrosaurus because, as he gets older, the epoccipital crests in his frill become spikes?
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