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Post by dinonikes on Mar 11, 2009 11:06:43 GMT
Brett-
I want you to look back in the thread to where Kiko posted a link to a site that he says has the most up to date info on Indri- there is a sculpted reconstruction on that site that I think is very similar to the sculpt I did as far as the leg bulk and although I think my sculpt has more life to it- you might feel better after seeing it as it definately doesn't look like the skinny longer appearing legs of a lot of the reconstructions out there of Indri- I used the Paleocraft Indri a lot as reference when I sculpted my Indri- as I found a site that had many photos of it from all angles- you can find this site if you look through google image search enough- it is a site by a modeler showing his build up of the paleocraft Indri- i think that the Paleocraft one has shorter looking legs than the one i did to be honest- its all about the photos- I do appreciate your concern for me making the best figures I possibly can- and I understand your concerns regarding the Indri I made- I am at a distinct advantage having my sculpt here to look at and to turn and actually measure and all- I can assure you the mesurements all are within the parameters of the info posted in many sources as to the mesurements of an Indri- whether I chose to beef up the legs- which are much thicker than most reconstructions- except the Plaeocraft one which inspired me- except the feet on that model are horrible- it is all an artistic choice- the basic armature i started with was certainly not short or lacking in height- I am not trying to start all of this up again, and certainly don;t want to garnish any sighs- just trying to reassure someonethat has a passion for my work- I have always been most accomadating to changing these things when i feel they need it- or not even in some cases- but I like this indri as it is - I think it looks rhino like much more than any other reconstruction i have seen- just look at the one on that site kIko posted- i think that one looks real lame in its lifeforce and believability- although i think it has t he same proportions as mine when i put my sculpt up to the screen when i have that one up on my computer- anyways-
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Post by bmknj17 on Mar 11, 2009 14:53:06 GMT
Hey Malcolm. Again, I was never suggesting that you should change the figure's height if you are satisfied with it. It's a judgment call to start but you're the boss in the end regardless. The debate was with others. And I never said anything like the legs were too bulky. It has always been about the figure's height--not it's heft. I do definitely think the face wrinkles need changing. But I know it is still your call. So I never need to address that for anyone again. And I only took it up a second time because you finally spoke to it. I've been saying that, yes, based upon the photos, because it's all I've got, that I think the legs appear too short, and I've defended that point via various means repeatedly only because a few (not all) others were arguing it, and as many were arguing that the length didn't matter as much as they were that the current length was right, which told me they felt it at least could go taller. I passionately doubt a single person would have complained had your figure had the extra bit of leg length. People are prone to accepting what they are given. I'm not saying it makes me right and you wrong. I'm saying I look at the Paleocraft, it appears slightly taller, it fits more with my idea of how this animal should look and what is magnificent about it. And I agree that yours looks rhino-like because of it's lack of height. That's what I don't like about it. It's not a modern rhino. It's like altering a mammoth to look elephantine. They're not the same animal. I don't see the point in trying to have one more resemble the other. Maybe if I see a level photo of the finished piece I'll realize the height is more in line with what I'd like to see. And I've acknowledged that--and that I could be wrong--all along as well. Last, it wasn't just me feeling this way. I'm not saying this to be persuasive, just to be fair. Christophe and MC agreed the legs needed length definitely for the former and I think more by way of expectation for the latter. And someone else thought the figure needed height from more of a hump. Sean, who disagreed with my pushing the issue, said it can go higher by as much as a cm. And someone else acknowledged it could up by a few mm. And no one was arguing it had to be it current height, that if it was taller it would be wrong. They spoke of it being female or there being variations within individuals. And I'm sure some were arguing simply because I was too particular for their comfort and they want me to relax my critiques out of concern for your workload or because they want their figures sooner (One even said so.) or simply are bothered by my level of detail-orientedness. Still not sure I'm right. Still might be the pic. But here's what I see... And I'm done, as I was before, as long as people let me be done. And hey, maybe it's just the little guy there enhancing his stature....
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Post by tomhet on Mar 11, 2009 17:33:52 GMT
OK, I wasn't going to answer directly, but what the heck. I passionately doubt a single person would have complained had your figure had the extra bit of leg length. People are prone to accepting what they are given. So you're basically saying we're idiots because some of us don't agree with you? Dinonikes himself has stated that you're wrong, I wonder who can't appreaciate correctly? And I agree that yours looks rhino-like because of it's lack of height. That's what I don't like about it. It's not a modern rhino. It's like altering a mammoth to look elephantine. They're not the same animal. I don't see the point in trying to have one resemble the other. So the Paleocraft Indri doesn't resemble a rhino? Gee, you're really blind if you can't see that. And I'm sure some were arguing simply because I was too particular for their comfort and they want me to relax my critiques out of concern for your workload or because they want their figures sooner (One even said so.) or simply are bothered by my level of detail-orientedness. Oh yeah, we are overwhelmed by your 'detail-orientedness'. I let out a sigh because your posts are becoming progressively tiresome and childish. It's not because you want more detail, we all want that, it's because you're suggestions stopped being helpful and started being annoying and were seemingly inspired by mere whim. In fact, your last posts are more offensive than any other on this thread, so I would watch it if I were you. I look at these figures with a careful and critical eye, as requested--something I think only a few here do, or are capable of doing. This is a forum in which people are juvenile and cowardly enough to put anonymous negative points for members on display for others to see, a conduct I would expect of children, though I certainly would never allow that sort of lack of integrity of my own. Some members are satisfied with figures of horrific quality and act utterly perplexed, rude, even smug when others demand better, as if theirs is in some twisted way a superior take. I want detail more than anybody else, but believe me, you have acted time and again like a snob, not like someones who know dinosaurs. There's a difference, you know? You don't like our forum? Then what the heck are you even doing here? Leave us retarded people and find another community.
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Post by stoneage on Mar 11, 2009 17:59:32 GMT
I feel that dinonikes is a fine experienced sculpter. He goes to a lot of trouble researching what he does. While some refinement may be needed now and then, I think for the most part they are very well done. I feel this Indricotherium figure is good as it is. Originally I though maybe the hump should be bigger, but I think it is fine the way it is. There needs to be a lot of muscle to hold up the heavy head and neck. As far as I can tell there is only one person who is concerned with wrinkles. We have no way of knowing for sure what their skin looked like. The wrinkles certainly don't look like clawmarks to me. Dinonikes has choose to use a thicker construction which is well within the estimates of its weight. For all we know she may be pregnant. I think if you put it to a vote, for those who are interested in this figure, almost everyone would say yes I like it. I don't feel that figures should be made to satisfy one persons personal specifications. If that is what they want then they can hire someone to make it specifically for them. Glad you've decided to go with it as it is. ;D
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Post by stoneage on Mar 11, 2009 18:49:45 GMT
I'm curious Dinonikes why you choose 3 1/2 inches for your Opthalmosaurus. 3 1/2 inches = 3 1/2 meters. Opthalmosaurus is generally consided to be 5 to 6 meters. I assummed this was 1 /40 scale.
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Post by bmknj17 on Mar 11, 2009 19:50:06 GMT
I'M IN ALL CAPS.
OK, I wasn't going to answer directly, but what the heck.
Today at 9:53am, bmknj17 wrote: I passionately doubt a single person would have complained had your figure had the extra bit of leg length. People are prone to accepting what they are given.
So you're basically saying we're idiots because some of us don't agree with you? THAT'S NOT WHAT I WROTE AT ALL. Dinonikes himself has stated that you're wrong, I wonder who can't appreaciate correctly? I'VE REPEATEDLY SAID I THINK THE ANIMAL SHOULD BE TALLER. I'VE NEVER SAID I'M DEFINITIVELY RIGHT. I'VE ONLY CONTINUED TO DEFEND MY POSITION BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE. LOGIC WOULD INDICATE IF YOU DON'T WANT THE DEBATE TO CONTINUE, THAT YOU'D STOP DEBATING.
Today at 9:53am, bmknj17 wrote: And I agree that yours looks rhino-like because of it's lack of height. That's what I don't like about it. It's not a modern rhino. It's like altering a mammoth to look elephantine. They're not the same animal. I don't see the point in trying to have one resemble the other.
So the Paleocraft Indri doesn't resemble a rhino? THAT'S NOT WHAT I WROTE AT ALL. Gee, you're really blind if you can't see that. WHAT I MEANT IS THAT MALCOLM'S LOOKS MORE RHINO-LIKE BY VIRTUE OF IT BEING SLIGHTLY SHORTER.
Today at 9:53am, bmknj17 wrote: And I'm sure some were arguing simply because I was too particular for their comfort and they want me to relax my critiques out of concern for your workload or because they want their figures sooner (One even said so.) or simply are bothered by my level of detail-orientedness.
Oh yeah, we are overwhelmed by your 'detail-orientedness'.
I let out a sigh because your posts are becoming progressively tiresome and childish. AND WHAT WAS CONSTRUCTIVE ABOUT DOING SO? AND THAT'S YOUR OPINION, AND MY POSTS WOULDN'T HAVE COME AT ALL HAD OTHERS NOT BEEN DEBATING THEIR POINT AS WELL. TAKES TWO SIDES TO GET A DEBATE THIS LONG. It's not because you want more detail, we all want that, it's because you're suggestions stopped being helpful and started being annoying and were seemingly inspired by mere whim. MY POSTS WERE VIRTUALLY ALL WELL DEFENDED. THEY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH WHIM. THE HEIGHT ISSUE IS A JUDGMENT CALL, NOT WHIM. In fact, your last posts are more offensive than any other on this thread I DISAGREE, so I would watch it if I were you. MY LAST POST WAS MEANT TO BE CRITICAL--NOT OFFENSIVE. THERE'S A DIFFERENCE. PEOPLE ARE BEING DISRESPECTFUL IN THE THREAD, ATTACKING ME BOTH FOR MY OPINION AND FOR EXPRESSING IT. AND THEY'RE BEING ILLOGICAL AND COMPLIANT IN THEIR WANTING THE DISCUSSION ENDED BUT CONTINUING TO OFFER THEIR POSITION. BLAME YOURSELF FOR THIS CONTINUATION.
Yesterday at 10:45pm, bmknj17 wrote:
I look at these figures with a careful and critical eye, as requested--something I think only a few here do, or are capable of doing.
This is a forum in which people are juvenile and cowardly enough to put anonymous negative points for members on display for others to see, a conduct I would expect of children, though I certainly would never allow that sort of lack of integrity of my own. Some members are satisfied with figures of horrific quality and act utterly perplexed, rude, even smug when others demand better, as if theirs is in some twisted way a superior take.
I want detail more than anybody else YOU HAVE NO BASIS TO SAY THIS. BUT IT SHOWS HOW CARELESS YOU ARE BEING WITH WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. but believe me, you have acted time and again like a snob, not like someones who know dinosaurs. There's a difference, you know? I KNOW VERY WELL. MY STANDARDS ARE WHAT THEY ARE. I'M NOT GOING TO APOLOGIZE FOR THEM. I'VE MADE THEM KNOWN EARLY ON AS A MEANS OF HAVING DISCUSSION, EXPLAINING MY PREFERENCES, AND BECAUSE I WAS ASKED--NOT BECAUSE I JUDGE PEOPLE ON THE QUALITY THEY DEMAND FROM TOY DINOSAURS. AND I HAVE HAD DIFFERENCES OF OPINIONS, BUT I'VE NEVER CRITICIZED OR INSULTED ANYONE ELSE FOR THEIRS. SNOBBISHNESS IS SAYING I LIKE THIS AND NOT THAT AND IF YOU DO THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU. I'M SAYING I LIKE THIS AND NOT THAT--ONLY. YOU'RE THE ONE EXPRESSING A PROBLEM WITH MY TASTE--THAT IT MUST BE WHIM IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH OR UNDERSTAND IT.
You don't like our forum? Then what the heck are you even doing here? Leave us retarded people and find another community. I WON'T EVEN ADDRESS THE IGNORANT WORD YOU USED HERE. NOR DO I NEED TO JUSTIFY WHY I'M HERE TO YOU. « Last Edit: Today at 12:40pm by Tomhet » Link to Post - Back to Top Logged
I feel that dinonikes is a fine experienced sculpter. He goes to a lot of trouble researching what he does. While some refinement may be needed now and then, I think for the most part they are very well done. I feel this Indricotherium figure is good as it is. Originally I though maybe the hump should be bigger, but I think it is fine the way it is. There needs to be a lot of muscle to hold up the heavy head and neck. As far as I can tell there is only one person who is concerned with wrinkles. We have no way of knowing for sure what their skin looked like. The wrinkles certainly don't look like clawmarks to me. Dinonikes has choose to use a thicker construction which is well within the estimates of its weight. For all we know she may be pregnant. I think if you put it to a vote, for those who are interested in this figure, almost everyone would say yes I like it. I don't feel that figures should be made to satisfy one persons personal specifications. If that is what they want then they can hire someone to make it specifically for them. Glad you've decided to go with it as it is.
EXCEPT FOR OUR ALREADY UNDERSTOOD DIFFERENCES OF OPINION RE: THE TWO ASPECTS OF THE FIGURE, I DON'T DISAGREE WITH ANYTHING YOU SAY HERE EXCEPT THE SUGGESTION THAT I THINK M SHOULD DO ANYTHING TO SATISFY ME. IF YOU THINK THAT, YOU ARE NOT READING MY WORDS CAREFULLY.
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Post by Dinotoyforum on Mar 11, 2009 21:01:57 GMT
I was going to comment on the ichthyosaur but there seem to be several topics (some heated, please be polite everyone) going on and this thread is getting a bit large and difficult to navigate. I think it would make sense to now have a subforum for Dinonikes where can post separate threads for each figure he is producing, that way we can separate the different discussions like the customs thread inspired by Teton. Dinonikes, does this sound OK?
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Mar 11, 2009 21:09:45 GMT
;-/ it's just an extinct rhino guys! Take some chil pills! *hands over bottle to forum* ;D Dinonikes, I like your indri, and who knows, maybe those are clawmarks from some preshistoric carnivore?
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Post by bmknj17 on Mar 11, 2009 21:23:59 GMT
DTF...
This is M's thread. All of my posts were about the figures until last night. Didn't want to derail it any more than it had gotten but I was past what I could tolerate without saying something.
Nothing more on any of these subjects from me unless called upon by others.
My apologies to you for reaching my breaking point and going OT.
Brett
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Post by tetonbabydoll on Mar 12, 2009 0:34:48 GMT
Soooo, after two weeks, I finally get my hands on a laptop to play with here in my lil hospital bed, and this is what I get to read? Really? We all have our favorites, where the details and look are going to matter more.But, reconstructions can be so varied, and what may appeal to one, may not to most. I don't think he is wrong for expressing his opinions. I did once, and said so. But M has publicly stated he wants the opinions to continue as is. He reserved the right to make the final decision, and that's that. If m does not have a problem, then i guess the rest of us should just leave it be. I am sure if there is an issue, M would probably address it in a PM. He's kinda classy that way. My opinion? Compared to other reconstructions, it is shorter. But, I know next to nothing about Prehistoric Mammal anatomy, so it is purely asthetic opinion, based on what i have seen before. I suspect that lengthening the legs would be a major surgery, as they are based on internal armatures, and support the entire sculpture. At this point, I'd bet changing the legs would mean a total rework, and only M can decide if he thinks it is worth it. I am not sure, Cordy, what you don't get by ROUGH sculpt? He said explicitly it was just a roughed out shell, to work out basics. I like it, I want it. I want most of them really.Anyway, it may just be the narcotics, but it seems just a bit....antagonistic here lately. We should be rejoicing that there is at least one person making toys out there who cares about our ideas, as opposed to just slapping them out. And, we are all after the same thing here, so i would think we could all conduct ourselves a little better.In case it has escaped anyone's notice, M seems to really be turned off by the negativity, and has started just posting in this thread. Having that negativity spill into here may just....annoy him some. I do think a sub-board like the customs may well serve him best. And us. That way, those who wish to just follow a particular sculpt may do so easier. Just my two cents. I do log in now and then on my friend's laptop, but I am not always ....um, coherent. Plus, I have sensors on my index finger, and I'm one of those there two-fingered typers. So, though I may not always comment, at least for a while, I do watch. So, shape up people!! And, I personally use the sighs and such, but not as insult. I do it mostly to inject a little bit of my personality into the typing. The words alone can be so impersonal. I just like putting a little of my own quirkiness into it....
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Post by dinonikes on Mar 12, 2009 1:05:47 GMT
I have to say I was pretty disappointed to log on and see that this thread had gotten to where it had- Brett sorry that a few members jumped on you- the whole point of this project was to try to sort out such problems together in a collaborative way- I have no problems discussing these sort of things- collaborative projects always have rough patches as things are discussed and worked out- I do it every day at work with clients and coworkers- there was a lot of discussion from several members about the muraenosaurus head which was only like 3/8ths of an inch long- little details do matter- sometimes I don't agree with the points being made and then i will decide if its a matter worth fixing or not- things can get drawn out somtimes, like with the para head- but I think that the sculpts overall are better for this detailed discussions that sometimes arise- that being said everyone should show each other respect- no one is above being wrong, myself included-and no one has a better insight into what is right or wrong than anyone else- there are skeletons and reference materials that should be the deciding things in these matters- I am probably just going to go off and sculpt for a while- I really don't like to see personal attacks on someone for expressing their opinions about something-or putting down someone else's opinonas unworhty -no one's opinion matters more than the next guy's in my book so long as it can be justified - whether i agree or if I disagree with them this process is supposed to be about debating the figures- not debating amongst each other- of course it all ultimately comes down to what I feel makes a piece finished and whether I deem a critcism worth fixing- or whether I feel it is just someone's way of seeing something- this process is imperfect- the photos i post are lacking- i post maybe three or so- haven't wanted to tie up this thread too much- but really it's sort of ridiculous if you look back through this thread, there are 62 pages to this thread and how many of those pages are actually posted photos of sculpts or DIRECT discussion of these posted photos - here are rules for this thread that should be followed going foward- i have PM'd DTF to ask about setting up a subforum, which sounds like a good idea to me- my only hope is that the previous thread-at least the meat of it can be preserved somehow for those collectors who hopefully will be coming to this thread due to my ad in PT,where i steer them to come join in the collaborative project- if the previous thread just disappears when a subforum is set up that would be sort of unfair to new comers who wouldn't be able to get caught up from the beginning, and to see the evolution of the idea nad the process which I have found very interesting and part of the cool thing about this project- I have suggestedto DTF that I would loveto go back and edit out all of the lint from this thread- it must be very frustrating to come late to this thread and have to wade through all of the extra bits to find out what is going on with the project- anyways- here are some rules for this thread - please respect them going foward- I am sure there are others that might be helpful , these are just off of the top of my head-
No posts that do not pertain directly to the figure or to the line of figures- suggestions for figures desired are fine- posts of explanatory photos such as photos of lizards, or turtles or other animals that relate directly to details of the sculpt, or that are suggested color schemes for finished pieces, or that support a point being made are fine- but there doesn't have to then be pages of discussion regarding these posted lizards or other informationally supportive animal photos, this thread is not to be used to discuss animal husbandry-posts of other toys or any reference material that will help in the development of the figures are fine and encouraged- no personal attacks on other members for their ideas or opinions-
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Post by Tyrannax on Mar 12, 2009 1:33:10 GMT
Wow, its fun to see how far this thread has gone. ;D
I like the sculpt, I think its better then most of us and some companies can do.
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Mar 12, 2009 3:00:42 GMT
Soooo, after two weeks, I finally get my hands on a laptop to play with here in my lil hospital bed, and this is what I get to read? Really? We all have our favorites, where the details and look are going to matter more.But, reconstructions can be so varied, and what may appeal to one, may not to most. I don't think he is wrong for expressing his opinions. I did once, and said so. But M has publicly stated he wants the opinions to continue as is. He reserved the right to make the final decision, and that's that. If m does not have a problem, then i guess the rest of us should just leave it be. I am sure if there is an issue, M would probably address it in a PM. He's kinda classy that way. My opinion? Compared to other reconstructions, it is shorter. But, I know next to nothing about Prehistoric Mammal anatomy, so it is purely asthetic opinion, based on what i have seen before. I suspect that lengthening the legs would be a major surgery, as they are based on internal armatures, and support the entire sculpture. At this point, I'd bet changing the legs would mean a total rework, and only M can decide if he thinks it is worth it. I am not sure, Cordy, what you don't get by ROUGH sculpt? He said explicitly it was just a roughed out shell, to work out basics. I like it, I want it. I want most of them really.Anyway, it may just be the narcotics, but it seems just a bit....antagonistic here lately. We should be rejoicing that there is at least one person making toys out there who cares about our ideas, as opposed to just slapping them out. And, we are all after the same thing here, so i would think we could all conduct ourselves a little better.In case it has escaped anyone's notice, M seems to really be turned off by the negativity, and has started just posting in this thread. Having that negativity spill into here may just....annoy him some. I do think a sub-board like the customs may well serve him best. And us. That way, those who wish to just follow a particular sculpt may do so easier. Just my two cents. I do log in now and then on my friend's laptop, but I am not always ....um, coherent. Plus, I have sensors on my index finger, and I'm one of those there two-fingered typers. So, though I may not always comment, at least for a while, I do watch. So, shape up people!! And, I personally use the sighs and such, but not as insult. I do it mostly to inject a little bit of my personality into the typing. The words alone can be so impersonal. I just like putting a little of my own quirkiness into it.... Woah woah woah! Why are you pointing the gun at me!? I have only supported dinonikes throughout this. *dodges garbage being thrown by teton*
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Post by tetonbabydoll on Mar 12, 2009 3:44:05 GMT
No gun, no garbage. I am just saying that he wasn't really asking for critique at this point, just showing us what he was thinking about. The time for more detailed discussion will come further on. I just thought that you seem....eager to critique a piece that was little more than a sculpter's version of a doodle. Don't be so touchy--isn't that what you tell me? I am doing better, guys, just the blood sugars are too high--in the 5 and 600's. The kidney numbers have normalized for now, and I may be home in a little less than a week.
I do not see why this thread would have to vanish. All of my old threads are still there. The pictures aren', but that is because I deleted them from photobucket.
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Post by Tyrannax on Mar 12, 2009 8:46:29 GMT
Why did you delete them...? I enjoyed looking at them..
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Post by blackdanter on Mar 12, 2009 10:11:47 GMT
OK, You don't like our forum? Then what the heck are you even doing here? Leave us retarded people and find another community. Totally offensive and unacceptable terminology. Moderator?
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Post by sepp on Mar 12, 2009 10:40:31 GMT
honestly I love the indricotherium... it makes me very sad to see such hostile behaviour among people who enjoy and respect the same interests at a place like this. -_-
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Post by tetonbabydoll on Mar 12, 2009 11:47:11 GMT
OK, You don't like our forum? Then what the heck are you even doing here? Leave us retarded people and find another community. Totally offensive and unacceptable terminology. Moderator? Ah, but Tomhet IS a moderator, you see. I remind myself by reading his charming and uplifting comments to me everyday, just so I know exactly what is thought of me, and don;t go all gettin grand ideas and such.....
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Post by kikimalou on Mar 12, 2009 13:05:07 GMT
happy to read you again Babydol, I hope you will go better and better.
Just a few word for you bmknj17. I appreciate very much the way you tried to enhance Malcolm's project. I like the way you always tried to explain your point of view and your motivations and not just decreed that you were right because you were right. I appreciate also very much your honesty and politeness. And I envy your patience.
As far as I'm concerned, YOU ARE WELCOME !
Friendly yours,
Kikimalou
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Post by sbell on Mar 12, 2009 13:49:31 GMT
OK, You don't like our forum? Then what the heck are you even doing here? Leave us retarded people and find another community. Totally offensive and unacceptable terminology. Moderator? So Blackdanter is gone? Anyone know why? And now, having said that... Folks, Malcolm has already requested we stay on topic on this thread. Complaints, affirmations, comments of comfort, etc need to go somewhere else. I have already offered to temporarily lock this thread until it passes over (at which point it can be reopened when Macolm has something to add to it). He asked me to leave it open, as he is concerned that people will think the project is over (really, his posts are on hiatus--he's going to go do his creating for now). His other concern is the amount of off-topic material on here; it makes the thread nigh-impossible to wade through (although the turtles are nice). Deleting at this point would be impossible, and this is why it may change so that each figure has a unique thread; it will be much easier to maintain thread integrity that way.
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