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Post by raderstudios on Dec 22, 2009 17:32:38 GMT
have any of these pieces been photoed and documented? If not, then shame on the private collectors, for this is highly valuable and sorely needed documentation...I despise the practice of private collections, for the most part, and this is why. Private collections aren't bad. But when you keep useful scientific information from, well, scientists who could really use that information, it certainly isn't a good thing … To those of us in the paleo community, private collections of important material are ALWAYS bad. On of the most important hallmarks of science is repeatability. With material in the hands of private collectors, rather than in public repositories where they will be kept for posterity, we as researcher have no way of assuring that the specimens that we publish on will be available later for repeated study. Therefore, MOST paleontologists will never publish work based on specimens that are in private collections. I don't know what the situation with Tom Holtz and the private Spinosaurs is, but I'm afraid that he might be taking a terrible risk in publishing the data.... unless he's only mentioning them as anecdotal evidence. -Jon
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Post by Blade-of-the-Moon on Dec 23, 2009 0:06:07 GMT
Blade, that drawing makes it look a bit like a hedgehog, don't you think? Practically speaking, all those little spikes would make for a VERY breakable resin sculpt. I know Marshall is pushing the envelope here, but to have that kind of detail and have it indestructible you would probably have to do a very large scale and use metal wires for the finer spikes. Time and cost prohibitive, I am afraid.... I love this image..it typifies the old and gnarly look I think. It would be quite fragile..unless perhaps the spines coud be made from molded rubber or a flexible plastic. Aren't there still photographs of the orig Spinosaurus material or did I dream that ? If so, yeah they are just images..but it would still be better than nothing right ?
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Post by kevin on Dec 23, 2009 0:13:50 GMT
but, I really don't think the holey sail is logical. That sail was not just a stretch of skin between the soines, like dimetrodon. I think it was a thicker structure of tendon and other material. Holes punched though it would be girl thingy, bleeding wounds, and almost certainly infected. Plus, I bet only another large theropod would be in a position to do that. It's not like a delicate sheet, that ripped and tore just on twigs...
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Dec 23, 2009 1:09:21 GMT
but, I really don't think the holey sail is logical. That sail was not just a stretch of skin between the soines, like dimetrodon. I think it was a thicker structure of tendon and other material. Holes punched though it would be girl thingy, bleeding wounds, and almost certainly infected. Plus, I bet only another large theropod would be in a position to do that. It's not like a delicate sheet, that ripped and tore just on twigs... Yep it was a much thicker structure. Any large holes that you could see through would become infected, and you better hope the infection doesn't spread into the bones themselves...
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Post by Griffin on Dec 23, 2009 1:28:15 GMT
Hmmm, maybe. Keep in mind though that certain animals, especially those who live in a fresh water environment have a much higher resistance to infection than other animals. They are actually studying alligators in the medical field now because somethin in ther blood makes them extremely resistant to infections. Think about it, they are always fighting amongst each other and its not uncommon for there to be open wounds and even severed limbs. Yet the animal can heal up no problem while its living in a mucky swampy environment. In fact, a lot of times when people die from alligator bites, its from the crap that gets into their bloodstream while they are escaping the gator through the mucky water through the bite wound itself.
I wouldn't doubt that spinosaurs may have had a similar mechanism to the one that gators have... whatever it is.
However, I agree that the sail would probably be a lot thicker in life than a simple fin on the back. Maybe getting thinner around the edges?
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Post by Blade-of-the-Moon on Dec 23, 2009 1:31:41 GMT
Fights with other Spinosaurs be it territorial or mating battles could've produced the wounds. Remember this piece is supposed to be ancient , old specimen..prob the victor of many fights and battles. Sarchosuchus could certainly make large holes and wounds in him..but he survived that too...it's been said animals that live to this age are either brutes or survivors..this guy could be both.
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Post by stoneage on Dec 23, 2009 1:56:36 GMT
Fights with other Spinosaurs be it territorial or mating battles could've produced the wounds. Remember this piece is supposed to be ancient , old specimen..prob the victor of many fights and battles. Sarchosuchus could certainly make large holes and wounds in him..but he survived that too...it's been said animals that live to this age are either brutes or survivors..this guy could be both. Maybe he was invincible?
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Dec 23, 2009 2:50:21 GMT
How would a sarchosuchus, that is maybe five feet off the ground, get 18 feet up in the air to bite a hole through a spino's sail ;D
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Post by Blade-of-the-Moon on Dec 23, 2009 3:24:24 GMT
No imagination at all eh Cordy ?
Spinos hunt..in the water. Perhaps he was dragged there..maybe he was swimming while he fished..puts him right at level with a big croc.
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Post by kevin on Dec 23, 2009 4:07:00 GMT
either way, I still think that sail is more fleshy than flimsy. The detaile involved in making that look, all leaky and girl thingy.....ew. I just don't think you'd see it all ripped and full of hols. I considered this when modifying the Carnegie's sail.
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Dec 23, 2009 5:07:47 GMT
If the spino was attacked in the water by a big croc, I think it would have gone for the Spinos' belly instead of the sail which would still be pretty awkward to get to..
Although, if the spino had a branch or something stuck through his sail, it might have been able to heal like a piercing almost, and leave a large hole through it... But that would have to be one stiff branch..
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Post by Griffin on Dec 23, 2009 5:35:52 GMT
If the spino was attacked in the water by a big croc, I think it would have gone for the Spinos' belly instead of the sail which would still be pretty awkward to get to.. Although, if the spino had a branch or something stuck through his sail, it might have been able to heal like a piercing almost, and leave a large hole through it... But that would have to be one stiff branch.. Dude seriously...are you really restricting the behavior of animals you have never even seen alive? Sure I bet the croc wouldn't go for the sail as his first chance but guess what, things don't always go as planned. Its called nature. First of all crocs can launch themselves high out of the water. They do it when they hunt birds. Watch an episode of Crocodile hunter, I bet you'll see it there. Second, you really think that in the millions of years that these two animals co-existed...not once did a Sarco ever get its jaws around a spino in that area? Really? Anything and everything could have and probably did happen back then at least occasionally. Look at any community of wildlife today. Baboons kill lions, lions hunt elephants, eagles kill wolves, heck, I saw footage of an adult leopard attempt to nurture and care for an orphaned baboon. Ever see that famous youtube clip with the lions, croc and buffalo? Bet you never could have predicted that eh? Lots of things go down in nature that goes against the "norm". That's what makes it nature. Saying any spino that ever lived never had a hole inflicted in its sail from another animal, much less a 50 foot crocodile, with such confidence is just...close minded and silly.
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Post by Blade-of-the-Moon on Dec 23, 2009 5:43:43 GMT
Animals incur damage all the time..especially the older they are. Like the Rex maquette from Sideshow..animals just aren't pristine...wounds happen..and infection can result...so bleeding ,leaking, if making a infected wound full of maggots helps the realism..well I've drawn them that way before..by all means sculpt it into a kit. That realistic difference will sell.
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Post by Blade-of-the-Moon on Dec 23, 2009 6:17:35 GMT
If the spino was attacked in the water by a big croc, I think it would have gone for the Spinos' belly instead of the sail which would still be pretty awkward to get to.. Although, if the spino had a branch or something stuck through his sail, it might have been able to heal like a piercing almost, and leave a large hole through it... But that would have to be one stiff branch.. I'm sure he would also have received wounds in other places...and our hypothetical beast has prob fought them his whole life growing up in the same habitat the crocs occupy. So holes in just his spine..prob not..possibly tearing of the dewalp ( if he has one per the artwork ) , slashesand tears all over the body..bite marks from large fish as well as crocs...lots of wear and tear. Wounds from battles with other Spinos and competitors..an old slash wound from a Char when he was younger maybe. That could chomped him on the spine and put holes in it that healed and just grew larger as he did. Lots of possibilites there...and each wound tells a story.
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Post by kevin on Dec 23, 2009 12:59:58 GMT
True. And I did have one thought about that sail. It may not have been as tough as I prtrayed, because it occured to me that if it were, then the whole body would have been rather stiff and inflexible, which doesn't make a lot of snse, does it? Surely the living animal had to be able to move around well, considering its environment? See, once again I will say I have always had a feeling that we are missing something rather fundamental about the spino, some piece of the puzzle that would explain why the sail, and how it moved and hunted, all of that, maybe locked away in a private vault somewhere...?
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Dec 23, 2009 14:01:01 GMT
If the spino was attacked in the water by a big croc, I think it would have gone for the Spinos' belly instead of the sail which would still be pretty awkward to get to.. Although, if the spino had a branch or something stuck through his sail, it might have been able to heal like a piercing almost, and leave a large hole through it... But that would have to be one stiff branch.. Dude seriously...are you really restricting the behavior of animals you have never even seen alive? Sure I bet the croc wouldn't go for the sail as his first chance but guess what, things don't always go as planned. Its called nature. First of all crocs can launch themselves high out of the water. They do it when they hunt birds. Watch an episode of Crocodile hunter, I bet you'll see it there. Second, you really think that in the millions of years that these two animals co-existed...not once did a Sarco ever get its jaws around a spino in that area? Really? Anything and everything could have and probably did happen back then at least occasionally. Look at any community of wildlife today. Baboons kill lions, lions hunt elephants, eagles kill wolves, heck, I saw footage of an adult leopard attempt to nurture and care for an orphaned baboon. Ever see that famous youtube clip with the lions, croc and buffalo? Bet you never could have predicted that eh? Lots of things go down in nature that goes against the "norm". That's what makes it nature. Saying any spino that ever lived never had a hole inflicted in its sail from another animal, much less a 50 foot crocodile, with such confidence is just...close minded and silly. Yes, crocodiles can launch themselves high out of the water when they are out in deep water- they don't just go from sitting down to having most of their mass high in the air. Ok, nature is unpredictable. Never would have guessed. I'm just saying- why would a 50 foot crocodile go for the sale when there are MUCH better hotspots to hit on the spino's body, and spots that wouldn't cause as much injury to the croc? And if it DID manage to get to the said, guess what- it still wouldn't have been able to make those clean little holes like that because Spino's fin was much more than a membrane. See how all of those broad sail bones were very close together? For an animal to make a perfect hole through one of those it would need to have very narrow jaws. The only narrow-jawed things that would mess with a spino in Spino's time would be, well, another spinosaur. And they don't have structurally strong enough jaw bones to do that kind of thing. You could say that Charcharodontosaurus tried to bite through a spino's sail, but that would leave a huge hole right there in the middle of it. And as for them having some type of "alligatorin" in their blood (I think that's what the stuff is called in aligator blood) that makes them immune to bacterial infections- there isn't any evidence either way, so I could just as easily say they didn't have it just like you can say they did. But I'm out. It's basically turned into "well you haven't seen the animals so you can't say I'm wrong!".
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Post by Griffin on Dec 23, 2009 22:12:47 GMT
"But I'm out. It's basically turned into "well you haven't seen the animals so you can't say I'm wrong!"" Congratulations! You just discovered the root of all debate amongst the paleontology community! Sure and I could say that spinosaurus had big butterfly wings too because we never saw the real thing. There is such thing as a more likely theory and there is such thing as a completely stupid one. I think, given the environment it lived in, it is likely that spino and any other animals with the same lifestyle were able to fend off infections pretty well somehow. I'm not saying they had the same exact mechanism as modern gators but they def had to be doing something right biologically. I still think its lame to say what could and couldn't make holes in a spino's sail. Heck, we don't even know how the sail itself was structured exactly. Its such a mysterious dinosaur with very little fossil material to study. Most anything said about it is going to be partly speculation and at this point, given what we know you really can't rule anything out either. Lots of people lose sight of this because its such a popular species nowadays. When it comes to stuff like this the best thing anyone can do is keep an open mind. The tighter you hold on to one idea, the more its gonna hurt when some new future evidence knocks you right off your feet.
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Post by Seijun on Dec 24, 2009 0:40:49 GMT
You guys fight over the silliest little things. If all we had of Panda bears were their million-year old fossilized remains, who would have guessed that they ate almost nothing but bamboo?
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Post by bucketfoot on Dec 24, 2009 3:11:24 GMT
You guys fight over the silliest little things. If all we had of Panda bears were their million-year old fossilized remains, who would have guessed that they ate almost nothing but bamboo? Guys like to argue. Its a form of communication that often has little to do with the actual subject. Like Peacocks spreading open their tail feathers while facing each other. Women like to sit down and chit chat for hours. Same thing.
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Post by Radman on Dec 24, 2009 15:51:49 GMT
Looks like the spino won't be alone at the fishing hole - a pair of Suchomimuses, among many others, are also expected next year. raderstudios.com
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