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Post by Dinotoyforum on Oct 30, 2008 13:12:16 GMT
Well I disagree vehemently. It is unethical, misleading, and frequently illegal (the 'fossil' of archaeoraptor was illegally exported from China) to use the separate parts of a chimera, especially since there is now no way of verifying the provenance or authenticity of the allegedly still valid 'composite' parts. Allowing this practice will merely encourage the 'farmers' and 'dealers' to create more hoaxes--er, composites-- to make them look more presentable to potential buyers and scientists. I'm presuming you only disagree about part one, that is, you think is is not OK to use the separate parts comprising a composite specimen. I do see your argument. I agree that compositing occurs and should not be encouraged and that to provide positive feedback is unethical. I agree that lack of provenance data has a major negative impact on the standards of the science. And I agree that breaking the law, when it occurs, tarnishes dinosaurologists. However, these are all judgement calls on our behalf. None of these moralistic judgments have any bearing on whether the actual material is intrinsically suitable for study or not. The Yanornis segment of Archaeoraptor doesn't care that it was botched onto another animal. It doesn't feel bad if it was shipped illegally. The fact that her exact location is unknown doesn't phase Yanornis one bit. Because intrinsically Yanornis is just a fossil. It is from this point of view that I say it is OK to study Yanornis. And what we don't know about Yanornis does not invalidate what we do know. I'm not arguing that morals have no place in science, and certainly not that science trumps morals - I'm just saying that from a purely scientific standpoint (omitting ethical considerations) the fossil material is worthy of study. Continuing on our theme of reaching common ground, do you agree with this notion? (I'm trying hard to understand your point of view, I'm sure you are willing to return the sentiment)
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Post by richard on Nov 2, 2008 1:17:38 GMT
well I think piltdown's point is that archaeoraptor never existed
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Post by thagomizer on Nov 2, 2008 1:46:46 GMT
well I think piltdown's point is that archaeoraptor never existed Neither did Brontosaurus, but that doesn't mean Apatosaurus is a hoax. And even if by some twisted insane scheme Apatosaurus IS a hoax, that doesn't mean Brachiosaurus is. Piltdown is arguing that because Archaeoraptor never existed, all Chinese fossils are in doubt. If you're arguing for a conspiracy that massive, why not go all-out and say all dinosaurs are fakes?
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Post by stoneage on Nov 2, 2008 2:22:46 GMT
well I think piltdown's point is that archaeoraptor never existed Neither did Brontosaurus, but that doesn't mean Apatosaurus is a hoax. And even if by some twisted insane scheme Apatosaurus IS a hoax, that doesn't mean Brachiosaurus is. Piltdown is arguing that because Archaeoraptor never existed, all Chinese fossils are in doubt. If you're arguing for a conspiracy that massive, why not go all-out and say all dinosaurs are fakes? ;D Because all Dinosaurs aren't fake, just the ones from China. ;D
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Nov 2, 2008 2:29:52 GMT
Neither did Brontosaurus, but that doesn't mean Apatosaurus is a hoax. And even if by some twisted insane scheme Apatosaurus IS a hoax, that doesn't mean Brachiosaurus is. Piltdown is arguing that because Archaeoraptor never existed, all Chinese fossils are in doubt. If you're arguing for a conspiracy that massive, why not go all-out and say all dinosaurs are fakes? ;D Because all Dinosaurs aren't fake, just the ones from China. ;D Velocciraptors are fake. And so are all the bugs with preserved wings, the lizards, etc.
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Post by Tyrannax on Nov 2, 2008 3:18:34 GMT
;D Because all Dinosaurs aren't fake, just the ones from China. ;D Velocciraptors are fake. And so are all the bugs with preserved wings, the lizards, etc. Never heard of a Velocciraptor, but Velociraptors are real.
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Post by tomhet on Nov 2, 2008 5:33:16 GMT
Piltdown is arguing that because Archaeoraptor never existed, all Chinese fossils are in doubt. If you're arguing for a conspiracy that massive, why not go all-out and say all dinosaurs are fakes? As long as Xu Xing gets fossils from the black market (like he got Microraptor) and as long as there IS a huge black market in such a corrupt country, I'll always be doubtful
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Post by stoneage on Nov 2, 2008 13:46:56 GMT
Piltdown is arguing that because Archaeoraptor never existed, all Chinese fossils are in doubt. If you're arguing for a conspiracy that massive, why not go all-out and say all dinosaurs are fakes? As long as Xu Xing gets fossils from the black market (like he got Microraptor) and as long as there IS a huge black market in such a corrupt country, I'll always be doubtful At least your mind is open to the possiblities and hasn't concluded that they are unquestionable.
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Post by thagomizer on Nov 4, 2008 1:04:59 GMT
Piltdown is arguing that because Archaeoraptor never existed, all Chinese fossils are in doubt. If you're arguing for a conspiracy that massive, why not go all-out and say all dinosaurs are fakes? As long as Xu Xing gets fossils from the black market (like he got Microraptor) and as long as there IS a huge black market in such a corrupt country, I'll always be doubtful False, since you've also doubted feathered specimens collected directly from the field by western scientists.
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Nov 4, 2008 1:34:53 GMT
Velocciraptors are fake. And so are all the bugs with preserved wings, the lizards, etc. Never heard of a Velocciraptor, but Velociraptors are real. At least I don't spell "Debris" like "debrees".
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Post by tomhet on Nov 4, 2008 6:58:17 GMT
As long as Xu Xing gets fossils from the black market (like he got Microraptor) and as long as there IS a huge black market in such a corrupt country, I'll always be doubtful False, since you've also doubted feathered specimens collected directly from the field by western scientists. Most of these findings have been done by Liaoning 'farmers', so yeah, I have a hard time believing that. And after considering that the Chinese leaders don't hesitate when they poison thousands of children with tainted milk or when they make the athletes cheat in the Olympics, faking fossils doesn't sound like a big deal.
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Post by Tyrannax on Nov 4, 2008 8:57:20 GMT
Never heard of a Velocciraptor, but Velociraptors are real. At least I don't spell "Debris" like "debrees". The garbage thing? Heh, lets keep that between you and me. ;D Shhhh..... Atleast I don't misspell DINOSORE names! ^ ;D ;D
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