|
Post by Tyrannax on Dec 16, 2008 0:59:12 GMT
^ Well said. Tyrannosaurus was a massive, heavy, bul of a dinosaur. I'm sure other organisms that lived during its time knew their place in the food chain, and certainly didn't pick a fight with Tyrannosaurus if they didn't have to. I mean, the animals aren't without some intelligence. They know when its time to leave. Why would such a large, light Pterosaur risk its own life by standing its ground to a Tyrannosaurus? There is no point. And as teton said, its body was much too fragile to even consider defending itself against an animal that weighed 7 tons.
|
|
|
Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Dec 16, 2008 1:26:29 GMT
* agrees with last three posts*
|
|
|
Post by ningishzida on Dec 16, 2008 1:37:05 GMT
If I go outside and saw a large crow with its wings extended at my cat, my cat would not back off. It would still attack the thing, even though its wing span is the length of the entire cat. The cat is a great deal smarter then the crow, just as A Tyrannosaurus is a great deal smarter then the Pterosaur. Eagles also attack much larger prey, and considering Tyrannosaurus was about as smart as an eagle, not much could change its mind if it were set. I said large theropod, not of any theropod. Troodon was the smartest, but it wasn't large. To be honest, I think its almost impossible to scare a Tyrannosaurus by using mere size trickery. That is, if the Pterosaur is bird brained enough to even try that sort of trick. Just because the cat is a mammal, does not mean it is smarter than the crow. Octopi are surprisingly intelligent, and J. Cousteau conducted experients that revealed that Sharks were as intelligent as some mammals. Yes, a Rex is far more powerful than a pterosaur, just as a lion is more powerful than the stork. But this does not mean the lions hunt the storks, they bascically ignore them. In fact, I don't recall ever seeing in any documentary of them killing/eating storks, even though they could. The relationship between these macro pterosaurs and T-Rexes may have been similar. They may have simply ignored them, and why? Maybe because they weren't worth the trouble to eat, or dangerous to kill becausse of the beak. The point is, we know Q lived in Rex territory despite the fact it probably could not take off very well and could be caught by the Rexes unless there was an unknown factor like the beak weapon or intimidation, or even tasting bad. And if you cat was nearly killed by crows when a kitten, it may avoid crows the rest of its life. I think today we see T-Rex as an 'eating machine' but in reality, it may have been very selective in its prey choices, and ignored flocks of giant pterosaurs just as lions ignore the storks..
|
|
|
Post by Tyrannax on Dec 16, 2008 1:57:14 GMT
I agree, Tyrannosaurus would have avoided such prey because they were able to avoid him with ease. Besides, Quetzalcoatlus wasn't much of a meal for such a large animal.
I do, however, not believe a Quetzalcoatlus could even remotely, or even try, to defend itself against Tyrannosaurus. Its just...hmmmm.. silly on the Pterosaurs part.
|
|
|
Post by tetonbabydoll on Dec 16, 2008 2:27:56 GMT
The original comment was not that rexes fed on the pterosaurs. It was postulated that the Q's would actively hunt rex babies and the mother rex could not defend against this. I do not believe rexes would bother the q's normally. It is not like they ran around eating every living thing all the time anyway. They would only hunt when hungry.
But, I do believe an adult tyrannosaur would most certainly stand its ground and protect itself and its young should it be attacked. And beside, just because you don't see something happen in a documentary, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen from time to time. cameras do not follow every cat and pride 24 hours a day.
As for the octo, good point. An animal, that is smart, and able to spread out its arms and change color to intimidate. Able to fit into any space, and stronger than it looks. Like the Q, you say. I don't think I have heard of octos facing off with adult sharks, just for fun. They are ambushers, and don't stand and fight. They run.....
|
|
|
Post by kuni on Dec 16, 2008 3:11:51 GMT
I think it's possible that an azdharcid could snipe theropod babies, but I wouldn't put money on it. And we'll probably never know...
|
|
|
Post by stoneage on Dec 16, 2008 5:02:02 GMT
;D In order for these big birds to fly they had to be light weight. At best these birds might have weighed 250 lbs. A T-Rex would have weighed over 3 tons at least. Do you know of a bird that normally attacks big cats to steal it's prey? ;D Look at the reconstruction of H. by a real Paleontologist. Do you really believe THAT could weigh only 250 lbs? It has the largest skull of any land vertebrate as well. No, sometimes the scientists are wrong. Bigger animals can fly than they ever dreamed of. Witton points out as well that the body of Q. is depicted far too small, for the size of its wingspan. If you watch animal documentaries of the african savannah you will see Marabou storks hovering right around the lions, snatching bits of prey when they can. The lions never seem to bother them........ maybe because they don't want a spear like beak through their eye. Australian frilled lizards can 'cow' theoretically more 'intelligent' dingos with their frill trick. Just think how impressive a 50 foot wingspan pterosaur could look with its wings extended. That might scare a T-Rex, espeically if the same creature gobbled up its siblings when it was small. From what I have read Hatzegopteryx skull was like styrofoam. It was designed to be light so it could fly. It is known from one incomplete skeleton consisting of skull fragments, a humerus, possibly a femur and a few other fragments. So from this scant evidence you think it could terrorize a T-Rex. So how heavy do you think it was? As big as an elephant. Remember Elephants can't jump much less fly! You say scientist are sometimes wrong which is true then maybe It's wing span wasn't 40 or 50 feet. Maybe it's size is exaggerated like many other Dinosaurs and Marine reptiles. After all there isn't enough evidence to reach a definite conclusion but I think many of your ideas are extremely doubtful. ;D
|
|
|
Post by crazycrowman on Dec 16, 2008 5:12:34 GMT
Trying not to get too OT.... "If I go outside and saw a large crow with its wings extended at my cat, my cat would not back off. It would still attack the thing, even though its wing span is the length of the entire cat." Well, I would bet that a single crow would not mess with a cat, unless they saw an edge, or were defending a chick and while a dedicated cat can certainly kill a juvenile crow who has recently fledged, or a crippled older individual, a group of crows could put a hurt on a cat, and they generally work in groups. As a matter of fact, if you do go out and look at crows, you are unlikely to see just one. They work with lookouts and are not easy birds to "get one up on". The little feline brain doesn't stand a chance A common raven can outright kill a cat without too much trouble. Brahm certainly could. I am sure he would be able to take out a Chihuahua, even a spunky one, and he is only a 4lb bird. He would grab its head with his talons and then snap its neck with his large bill. Don't underestimate raptorial birds in general - they take really large game compared to their bodyweight. Great Horns and Red tails take cats and small/med dogs with no trouble, and Red tails rarely top 4lbs, though some HUGE hens can get up to 6. picasaweb.google.com/smaster746/20080524Hawks#5267951457085137922Even those raptors have to be wary of crows and ravens - I made a post about this before. Crows and ravens main predators are the giant owls, the Great Horned, and the Eagle Owls. They will take them off their roosts in their sleep. (Those owls also eat hawks and juvenile eagles) When they can, the Corvids will gang up and attack, and sometimes even kill these birds if they discover them in their territory, simply out of competition, like lions go after and kill hyenas. Brahm, my raven never hesitates messing with dogs, even BIG dogs. (and people, and most of the cats he knows run in fear the moment they see him - he gives his battle cry and hurtles off after them like a shot! - We have had problems with him going after hawks and eagles too, as he wants to try to take them apart) By big dogs, I mean large intimidating short tempered dogs, like a friends 150lb wolfdog. He will fly up, get behind them and YANK the animals tail, sometimes actually pulling out hair. The dog will then spin around, but is simply no match for the corvid agility and wit. They will take food from wild wolves/wild dogs/coyotes and even things up to the size of grizzly bears doing this exact same thing. As a matter of fact, in raven country, most of those animals don't even bother trying to mess with the large corvids anymore, and feed calmly alongside them much as lions/hyenas do with griffin vultures/marabou storks. www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EAoqrfz8ZYRavens and wolves feed together regularly, and are thought to associate because they work together to find prey. Ravens, unable to kill an elk, will lead wolves to it, who then kill it. In turn, the ravens can then all have elk. Those are raven calls you hear in this video. www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uqPSTD-eBYSame for grizzly. Carrion crows, a much smaller corvid do the same. www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nlT99-vTx0"The cat is a great deal smarter then the crow" Cats ARE ABSOLUTELY NOT smarter then crows. Not by a long shot. Crows are amazingly social tool users, with a "language" and distinct cultures. Crows and Ravens are up there with dolphins, elephants, and the great apes. news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/12/1209_041209_crows_apes.htmlwww.newscientist.com/article/dn13544-birds-team-up-to-solve-food-puzzle.htmlKeeping them is like living with flying monkeys. They had the locking mechanisms on their flights figured out within a day of being in there, and they were just chicks. Fortunately, they don't seem to be able to get free from padlocked doors
|
|
|
Post by Tyrannax on Dec 16, 2008 5:23:11 GMT
Of course an eagle can kill a cat! Thats just common sense, but it changes when the eagle is put in with a large tiger. ;D As much as I doubt any crow could hurt my huge husky cat to the point of death, I agree that crows do work in groups. I was just using them as an example. I didn't mean to say a crow would stand there in front of a cat with its wings spread. What do you mean the little feline brain? Cats a re a great deal smarter then crows. Cats, in fact, are smart as far as any animal goes. Putting a massive raven up against a cat is just silly too. House Cats are very small animals, we must be fair here...
|
|
|
Post by crazycrowman on Dec 16, 2008 5:28:38 GMT
"Of course an eagle can kill a cat! Thats just common sense, but it changes when the eagle is put in with a large tiger."
Uhm. I am not talking eagles. That photo was a 4lb or less red tail with a cat. Cats generally weigh in at 12 to 18lbs, sometimes more. Thats a heck of a weight difference.
As much as I doubt any crow could hurt my huge husky cat to the point of death, I agree that crows do work in groups. I was just using them as an example. I didn't mean to say a crow would stand there in front of a cat with its wings spread.
"What do you mean the little feline brain? Cats a re a great deal smarter then crows."
Learn about crows, please. Some good books are In the Company of Crows and Ravens by John M. Marzluff and Mind of the Raven: Investigations and Adventures with Wolf-Birds by Bernd Heinrich to start. Corvids outsmart felines by a landslide.
"Putting a massive raven up against a cat is just silly too. House Cats are very small animals, we must be fair here..."
Brahm weighs 4lbs. Yes he has a 58" wingspan, but he is not a heavy creature. He harasses 150lb dogs, and could likely kill 15lb+ prey. Thats a small animal - Brahm, taking on MUCH larger animals.
|
|
|
Post by Tyrannax on Dec 16, 2008 5:33:30 GMT
Wow, birds are much more capable then I thought!!! They must be pretty smart to outwit a feline....you do know cats are one of the smartest animals? I didn't mean to shun birds crazycrowman...I'm sorry. I get defensive with cats, just as Tyrannosaurus. I know that eagles were smarter then cats, but crows too???
|
|
|
Post by tomhet on Dec 16, 2008 5:34:22 GMT
I thought a large pterosaur was the subject ;D
|
|
|
Post by Tyrannax on Dec 16, 2008 5:38:51 GMT
Errm, sorry Tomhet!!! ;D No more derailment from me, promise!!
|
|
|
Post by Ajax on Dec 16, 2008 6:23:38 GMT
Dumb crows must have lived on my farm because my big tom cat killed them quite often, at least 4 times i can think off. He also killed large Owls, a Hawk and many other Birds he should not have been killing.
|
|
|
Post by crazycrowman on Dec 16, 2008 6:33:02 GMT
So not to complexly derail, this next bit address to T rex will be the last bit I add about corvids here - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvidae"Wow, birds are much more capable then I thought!!! They must be pretty smart to outwit a feline....you do know cats are one of the smartest animals?" Based on the brain-to-body ratio of animals over 1 kilogram, corvid brains are among the largest in birds, equal to that of great apes and cetaceans, and only slightly lower than a human. Cognition is probably a better term then out and out "intelligence" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_cognitionCats fare ok in cognition ranking tests. That does not mean they are not smart or capable or adaptable creatures. They are not though "social and smart like us" like the other animals people consider particularly "smart" (cognitive) - those being the other Great Apes, the Dolphins, Elephants, Corvids, Parrots and Pigs. "I didn't mean to shun birds crazycrowman...I'm sorry. I get defensive with cats, just as Tyrannosaurus." I can understand that you love cats. I love all sorts of animals, and a large part of the reason I was drawn towards working with corvids and parrots was because they are so cognitive and capable of learning to work with people. I run into alot when people think birds are small brained creatures due to old stereotypes and misunderstandings about birds. Search you tube for some Videos of Nkisi or Alex the African Greys if you want to be humbled by smart birds. Only Gorillas, Chimps and African Greys have learned how to use of our language besides us. The other primates sign, but some parrots outright talk and know what they are saying. "I know that eagles were smarter then cats, but crows too?" Eagles are actually not "that" socially and cognitively "bright" creatures. They are probably more similar to cats in many ways (I would say cats are more cognitive then eagles!) They have a less complex active social network, are not tool users, and do not seem to have the same abilities for active reasoning, problem solving and even the levels of self awareness (something so far only address and noted in corvids, elephants and great apes) that crows and ravens have. Both eagles and cats are smart enough, (all animals are as smart as the need to be) and quite adept (superb) predators though, and I am by no means trying to "put them down" - just point out that neither can compare to what corvids are capable when it comes to "plotting" and "planning" "Dumb crows must have lived on my farm because my big tom cat killed them quite often, at least 4 times i can think off. He also killed large Owls, a Hawk and many other Birds he should not have been killing. " Could it be that they were juveniles ? I know Oz crows, (you are sure they were crows of the corvid family and not something else like blackbirds, which are a kind of introduced thrush in Oz ?) I know your native crows are smaller then those here in the US. (well, that depends, the Fish crow is pretty small, and we have those around here as well as the larger American Crow, and the quite large Common Raven) then there is always the chance that you could have just had/have a very capable predatory cat. What kinds of owls/hawks did your cat kill ? (I would make the suggestion of keeping your cat indoors if its taking out that much wildlife!) Now, to get back on topic....we know crocodilians are among the "smartest" of living "reptiles" and they are the only "reptile" to actually have a true cerebral cortex...Pterosaurs are croc relatives....does anyone know anything about pterosaur brain anatomy ? Maybe we could get more of a bead on what they had as grey matter and that could give us more of an idea of what they could have been capable of ?
|
|
|
Post by Tyrannax on Dec 16, 2008 6:40:50 GMT
^ That was quite a mouthful crazycrowman!! ;D
|
|
|
Post by Ajax on Dec 16, 2008 7:05:56 GMT
Im not saying its good that my cat kills animals (he is dead now anyway) but all i was saying is he was as good a hunter as i have seen. I also know what a crow is, I grew up on a sheep farm and crows were everywhere, they used to eat our baby lambs and sheep's eyes (while the sheep was alive) I don't like cats killing native animals but could not have cared less about him killing dirty rotten crows, i also don't believe in cats being kept indoors unless they want to be.
|
|
|
Post by tetonbabydoll on Dec 16, 2008 8:27:48 GMT
Oooookaaaay then....... I'm sure Crazycrowman won't take THAT the wrong way......
|
|
|
Post by crazycrowman on Dec 16, 2008 9:08:31 GMT
"I also know what a crow is, I grew up on a sheep farm and crows were everywhere, they used to eat our baby lambs and sheep's eyes (while the sheep was alive)" Ah, so no mistakes on Id's then. I would think your cat was a good predator, though I would not be surprised if the crows, or the majoraty of crows taken by him were young and unexperienced birds. You see this every year on the roadways around here. Adult crows rarely get hit by cars, but after fledging, every spring, there are some juveniles who do not learn the ways of the cars quick enough, and get thinned out. (literally) Though unfortunate for your lambs, that sort of predation is yet another example of their adaptability and willingness to take advantage of live food resources much larger then them. Even crows will take down sheep and lambs by attacking lambing ewes and calves. Ravens have been known to take adult sheep. They have also been known to go after deer fawns, though much of the time unsuccessfully. "I don't like cats killing native animals but could not have cared less about him killing dirty rotten crows, i also don't believe in cats being kept indoors unless they want to be." www.cat-world.com.au/IndoorCats.htmI do believe cats should be kept indoors because not doing so it really harmful to native wildlife, an issue especially of concern in places like Oz with so many species threatened by introduced predators. Crows aside, (a common and adaptable species that surely were under no pressure from the occasional cat predation) think of all the other native animals your cat was capable of exterminating if it was capable of taking crows. Invasive species, and "outdoor cats" in particular are really taking their toll on wildlife world wide. (And Teton, you don't have to worry about me getting irate over this - I don't really take it the wrong way - Ajax apparently really hates crows. Alot of people REALLY hate crows. Its sort of a testament to their adaptability and toughness - they are too good at what they do. People in all parts of the world have been trying to eliminate crows from the time we have had a hand in agriculture - before that as hunter/gatherers crows and ravens were often treated as guides/sacred type entities by primitive cultures - We dealt a heavy hand for the wolf, and bear, and many other species (in Oz the Tazzy Tiger and the Tazzy Devil to name a couple of well known ones, and even the Dingo, which is, granted a naturalized species) with our bounty and eradication programs because they competed with mans agricultural resources, and even the raven suffered, in part because with no wolves & bears, the ravens had less to eat - But crows in nearly all the parts of the world where they were common, remain so, and in many areas are considered significant pests because of this. I have an affinity for many animals that are hated in such ways - corvids, snakes, spiders, and in some areas crocodilians. OK....so, Pterosaur brains anyone ? Going once, going twice ?
|
|
|
Post by tetonbabydoll on Dec 16, 2008 9:35:00 GMT
No thanks. No brains for me, I already ate...... Is it possible that the crows taken by that cat were ill, or injured. I had a Newfoundland once that got a crow, and I KNOW he was too slow to catch a well one.... I still don't see these giant pterosaurs roaming the plains eating everything at will. And, group predation is a different can of worms altogether. I don't know. NOBODY really knows. I think, that that is what upsets me about these.....discussions. "Facts" get stated as absolute, when the reality is, we DON'T know. We can only infer tyrannosaur behavior from modern animals. We can make guesses at how pterosaurs behaved. That is all fine, but to state that this or that was so, is just wrong. It would only take slight re-wording. I "think" pterosaurs MIGHT have behaved this way. Or, pardon the cross threading here, I believe large therapods MAY have looked this way. It is POSSIBLE that rex was a hunter, or scavenger, or fluffy, or scaly, or......State your opinions as such, and support them. Cool, fine. But we just cannot say anything as absolute fact about behavior, and precious little about soft tissue reconstruction. I do have a nagging feeling though. That dino mummy they found, the Hadrosaur, had a much larger back end than was thought. And as I sit here looking at the Carnegie original Stegosaurus, and the Wild Safari version, I can't help but think that that chunky lil Carnegie might have been more accurate after all......... Sorry, end of rant. I now return you to our regularly scheduled thread, already in progress.
|
|