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Post by ningishzida on Jan 3, 2009 12:10:56 GMT
;D I think that since the smartest of Dinosaurs was no smarter then an Opossum that if man had evolved along with Dinosaurs he would have learned to hunt and kill them. By observation man would quickly learn how to trick them. They would have become extinct much sooner if man had been there. T-Rex was dumb compared with todays animals. ;D I believe you are mistaken based on the true story of Gustave. One crocodile that 'learned' how to hunt humans has 'outwitted' and eaten over 300 people in a place were every male over the age of 10 owns a croc killing assault rifle. 'Cavemen' killing T-Rexes is pure comic book fantasy. It is believed that before they were decimated by modern weapons, crocodiles killed huge numbers of people every years since the dawn of time. So why didn't humans wipe them out? The couldn't do it until the high powered rifle was invented. The facts speak for themselves. And I think everyone here would agree that a 40 ft. Rex might be just a little more of a threat to humans than a 15 foot crocodile.
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Post by ningishzida on Jan 3, 2009 12:29:23 GMT
See, this is a nice silly speculative argument! I'm not convinced that spears couldn't penetrate rex hide if they were tipped with obsidian points. Monomolecular edges are nasty! That being said, why not stay away, or kill juveniles and steal eggs? Or, just eat all the herbivores and then your carnivore problem takes care of itself! (now I'm curious how croc hide would react to a thrown obsidian spear or atlatl...) There is far more to this than simply the sharpness of the obsidian. Recall that simple, padded cottom garments were enough protectection in mesoamerican warfare against obsidian weapons. The people had the technology to make copper armor, but it simply wasn't needed. There are many accounts of smoothbore musket balls bouncing off the backs of large alligators, yet this same weapon penetrated suits of steel armor. Dinosaur skin was completley covered in ceratin scales, the same incredibly hard substance as a bull's horns. It was further reinforced by scutes and nodules of solid bone. It is almost impossible for a human to stab through the thick hide of a rhino, and this is with a fine steel weapon. It would be totally impossible with a stone weapon that would likely break first. And then, add to that, this layers of hard keratin scales and bone plates. No human would even have the force to propel such a weapon hard enough to penetrate this armor. And you still haven't addressed the point that any human within stabbing or throwing range would be dead meat. Like crocodiles, there is not reason to believe other archosaurs like Rexes would not protect their young too. There is some good evidence for this. And humans would not be able to kill the large prey like triceratops either, which would be far more dangerous than mammoths. And then if you were out in the open hunting large dinos, the humans would be easy pickings for the Rex. No. Humans would have only survived if they could remain hidden from the Rexes, and this would have kept them primitive.. They could not kill them.....period, just like crocodiles, that preyed heavily on humans until modern weapons were invented. But modern weapons could never have been invented in a world ruled by dinosaurs, because man could not have developed this technology in an environment where leaving a cave invited instant death.
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Post by dinonikes on Jan 3, 2009 14:31:46 GMT
This is pure fantasy, so there are no right or wrong answers. It is like a plot out of the Twilight Zone, and like that is an imaginative exercise. Please don't turn this one into one of those heated discussions where feelings get hurt and all of that. Play nice.
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Post by tetonbabydoll on Jan 3, 2009 15:46:20 GMT
inosaur skin was completley covered in ceratin scales, the same incredibly hard substance as a bull's horns. It was further reinforced by scutes and nodules of solid bone.
Please present your evidence for this. I know of only a few skin impressions, and even fewer from a rex. If you indeed have access to a full body skin of a rex, please share with the class. And I have seen no evidence provided to support the keratin scales either. That seems to be more of an opinion. Unless you can support it with direct evidence.
ike crocodiles, there is not reason to believe other archosaurs like Rexes would not protect their young too. There is some good evidence for this.
Why do you say this as a fact? It is only one of many possible theories out there. Just as much evidence for the protection of the young as not.
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Post by ningishzida on Jan 3, 2009 19:29:46 GMT
inosaur skin was completley covered in ceratin scales, the same incredibly hard substance as a bull's horns. It was further reinforced by scutes and nodules of solid bone. Please present your evidence for this. I know of only a few skin impressions, and even fewer from a rex. If you indeed have access to a full body skin of a rex, please share with the class. And I have seen no evidence provided to support the keratin scales either. That seems to be more of an opinion. Unless you can support it with direct evidence. ike crocodiles, there is not reason to believe other archosaurs like Rexes would not protect their young too. There is some good evidence for this. Why do you say this as a fact? It is only one of many possible theories out there. Just as much evidence for the protection of the young as not. It is common knowledge that reptilian scales are made of keratin, just like hair and feathers. But it is in its 'toughest' form as scales, as hair and feathers are not intended to be an armor. In fact, your keratin nails and hair are the toughest part of your body. If you were swallowed by a large reptilian predator, hair nails, and teeth are the only things that could not be dissolved. The only large therpod skin impression show a scaly hide with bony scutes and nodules. Even the mummified duckbills have incrediby thick, tough skin covered in hard Keratin scales. It is logical T-Rex would have similar skin as other large theropods. It is a fact that MOST other archosaurs exhibit maternal instincts, whether Avian or Crocodilian. And juveniles over a year old have been found in nesting sites of dinosaurs. Therefore it is logical T-Rex would care for its young. I didn't say it was "fact", I said logical, and good evidence.
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Jan 3, 2009 19:53:57 GMT
From the skin impressions we DO have, they do not have "overlapping keratin scales". It is rough and pebbly, kind of like a rhino or elephant, but more... Bumpy(?). There is only one dinosaur that we have found to have "Bony scutes and nodules", and that is carnotaurus. Just because carnotaurus has those scutes, every single other species of dinosaur has to have them?
We also have a very small scrap of trex skin, and it doesn't show bony bumps, it shows skin similar to hadrosaurs (that pebbly texture.).
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Jan 3, 2009 19:54:47 GMT
;D I think that since the smartest of Dinosaurs was no smarter then an Opossum that if man had evolved along with Dinosaurs he would have learned to hunt and kill them. By observation man would quickly learn how to trick them. They would have become extinct much sooner if man had been there. T-Rex was dumb compared with todays animals. ;D I believe you are mistaken based on the true story of Gustave. One crocodile that 'learned' how to hunt humans has 'outwitted' and eaten over 300 people in a place were every male over the age of 10 owns a croc killing assault rifle. 'Cavemen' killing T-Rexes is pure comic book fantasy. It is believed that before they were decimated by modern weapons, crocodiles killed huge numbers of people every years since the dawn of time. So why didn't humans wipe them out? The couldn't do it until the high powered rifle was invented. The facts speak for themselves. And I think everyone here would agree that a 40 ft. Rex might be just a little more of a threat to humans than a 15 foot crocodile. Gustave was a crocodile who got a taste for humans by all the dead bodies from that war. And then he hunted people at night who were hanging out by the river. I don't think that many people shot at him.
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Post by ningishzida on Jan 3, 2009 23:10:51 GMT
From the skin impressions we DO have, they do not have "overlapping keratin scales". It is rough and pebbly, kind of like a rhino or elephant, but more... Bumpy(?). There is only one dinosaur that we have found to have "Bony scutes and nodules", and that is carnotaurus. Just because carnotaurus has those scutes, every single other species of dinosaur has to have them? We also have a very small scrap of trex skin, and it doesn't show bony bumps, it shows skin similar to hadrosaurs (that pebbly texture.). The Tylosaur had the overlapping scales. But these pebbly ones are like a carpet of hard Keratin pebbles pressed into thick leather. The scientiests working on Leonardo the hadrosaur mummy commented on how thick and tough its hide was. Yeah, a T-rex could cut through it with tons of bite force, but a human with a stick wih a stone tied on top? You got to be kidding.
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Post by tetonbabydoll on Jan 3, 2009 23:20:51 GMT
inosaur skin was completley covered in ceratin scales, the same incredibly hard substance as a bull's horns. It was further reinforced by scutes and nodules of solid bone. Please present your evidence for this. I know of only a few skin impressions, and even fewer from a rex. If you indeed have access to a full body skin of a rex, please share with the class. And I have seen no evidence provided to support the keratin scales either. That seems to be more of an opinion. Unless you can support it with direct evidence. ike crocodiles, there is not reason to believe other archosaurs like Rexes would not protect their young too. There is some good evidence for this. Why do you say this as a fact? It is only one of many possible theories out there. Just as much evidence for the protection of the young as not. It is common knowledge that reptilian scales are made of keratin, just like hair and feathers. But it is in its 'toughest' form as scales, as hair and feathers are not intended to be an armor. In fact, your keratin nails and hair are the toughest part of your body. If you were swallowed by a large reptilian predator, hair nails, and teeth are the only things that could not be dissolved. The only large therpod skin impression show a scaly hide with bony scutes and nodules. Even the mummified duckbills have incrediby thick, tough skin covered in hard Keratin scales. It is logical T-Rex would have similar skin as other large theropods. It is a fact that MOST other archosaurs exhibit maternal instincts, whether Avian or Crocodilian. And juveniles over a year old have been found in nesting sites of dinosaurs. Therefore it is logical T-Rex would care for its young. I didn't say it was "fact", I said logical, and good evidence. Sorry, I misread your post. I thought you said rex's would not protect the young. My bad.
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Jan 4, 2009 1:02:24 GMT
From the skin impressions we DO have, they do not have "overlapping keratin scales". It is rough and pebbly, kind of like a rhino or elephant, but more... Bumpy(?). There is only one dinosaur that we have found to have "Bony scutes and nodules", and that is carnotaurus. Just because carnotaurus has those scutes, every single other species of dinosaur has to have them? We also have a very small scrap of trex skin, and it doesn't show bony bumps, it shows skin similar to hadrosaurs (that pebbly texture.). The Tylosaur had the overlapping scales. But these pebbly ones are like a carpet of hard Keratin pebbles pressed into thick leather. The scientiests working on Leonardo the hadrosaur mummy commented on how thick and tough its hide was. Yeah, a T-rex could cut through it with tons of bite force, but a human with a stick wih a stone tied on top? You got to be kidding. Then we agree on everything.
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Post by stoneage on Jan 4, 2009 3:18:57 GMT
;D There is no evidence to tell us anything directly about T-Rex skin. There are areas of vulnerability. The eyes for one. Also T-Rex is about the size of an elephant. It is known that homosapiens killed whooly mammoths. You could have trapped a T-rex. Have him charge into a hole or over a cliff. Fire would work for this. Also you could drop big rocks on him from above on a cliff or tree. You could also trip him with logs or vines. Yes! T-Rex would be in a no win situation against homosapiens. It would only be a short time before extinction! ;D
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Post by ningishzida on Jan 4, 2009 6:51:30 GMT
;D There is no evidence to tell us anything directly about T-Rex skin. There are areas of vulnerability. The eyes for one. Also T-Rex is about the size of an elephant. It is known that homosapiens killed whooly mammoths. You could have trapped a T-rex. Have him charge into a hole or over a cliff. Fire would work for this. Also you could drop big rocks on him from above on a cliff or tree. You could also trip him with logs or vines. Yes! T-Rex would be in a no win situation against homosapiens. It would only be a short time before extinction! ;D That sounds like stuff you'd find in a comic book or cartoon, but highly unlikely in a real life scenario. Early humans killed mammoths because they were unrmored herbivores. You don't seem to understand that the Rex would be the hunter, with superior sight, smell and hearing, and probably active hunters of humans if they had existed. You would not be able to dig comic book traps when you are sniffed out or spotted, and eaten moments after creeping out of a cave..
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Post by stoneage on Jan 4, 2009 18:26:24 GMT
;D There is no evidence to tell us anything directly about T-Rex skin. There are areas of vulnerability. The eyes for one. Also T-Rex is about the size of an elephant. It is known that homosapiens killed whooly mammoths. You could have trapped a T-rex. Have him charge into a hole or over a cliff. Fire would work for this. Also you could drop big rocks on him from above on a cliff or tree. You could also trip him with logs or vines. Yes! T-Rex would be in a no win situation against homosapiens. It would only be a short time before extinction! ;D That sounds like stuff you'd find in a comic book or cartoon, but highly unlikely in a real life scenario. Early humans killed mammoths because they were unrmored herbivores. You don't seem to understand that the Rex would be the hunter, with superior sight, smell and hearing, and probably active hunters of humans if they had existed. You would not be able to dig comic book traps when you are sniffed out or spotted, and eaten moments after creeping out of a cave.. ;D Comic books, you talk about Dragons like they really exist and then you talk about comic books. Yes hunters probably would have hunted herbivores first but a T-Rex is not as smart as an elephant. Elephants can smell water etc. miles away. They also have excellent hearing and can hear low frequencys that humans can't. T-Rex was a big game hunter it wouldn't be overly interested in trying to catch small humans. Remember a T-Rex can bite off 500 lbs of meat in a single mouthful. A small human probably weighing no more then 150 pounds wouldn't be worth the energy expenditure. Have you ever tried to catch a wild small mammal by hand like a mouse. Good Luck! and remember a T-Rex doesn't have useful arms and hands. Remember T-Rex hunted large slow moving herbivores, not quick, agile and highly intelligent humans! Get real! Dragons are a fantasy just like your thoughts on T-Rex! ;D
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Jan 4, 2009 18:28:36 GMT
... And, to go along with stoneage's post, trex couldn't outrun humans. What would be the point of chasing after skinny little bags of bones that could probably outrun you?
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Post by Tyrannax on Jan 4, 2009 23:02:56 GMT
I disagree. I believe Tyrannosaurus could run as fast as a charging elephant. Why do you think just because T-Rex is big it couldn't outrun humans? Plus, its a bird relative. C'mon, this bad boy was fast! It had to outrun its dinner, which would have been fairly fast (Especially Hadrosaurs which had no defensive weapons). We're talking 20 -24 miles an hour. Some humans can run that fast, but try running out to a bull African elephant See how that turns out for you. Why risk your entire group hunting Tyrannosaurus Rex? It probably wasn't interested in small prey like humans and Dromeosaurs, I agree, but humans would probably only resort to hunting him if no other food source was available. Why kill an elephant when you can kill zebra? Tyrannosaurus had small arms for a reason, it had a massive head. Who needs arms to hunt when your massive head and teeth are in the way. It was the most well equipped head hunting predator that ever lived. Having the strongest bite force, largest teeth, and strongest neck muscles. Even if humans could stab T-Rex, it wold not kill him. If someone stabbed me with a toothpick I certainly wouldn't fall down in agony and die. ;D ;D ;D I'd say OW! And beat the crud out of the person. ;D Tyrannosaurus would not be worth killing. Plus, they most liley lived in small family groups. C'mon fellow homo sapiens lets go ignore those Hadrosaurs and run into the T-Rex camp! ;D Think about it, if humans were in fact on the menu, this would be a scenario in my opinion. A homo sapien is taking a stroll through a clearing, hiding behind brush the entire way. He walks out from behind one, and 100 yards away, a massive Tyrannosaurus with acute smell and binocular vision stops, raises its head, and stares. The human freezes, and backs away. The Tyrannosaurus silently starts charging, like a bird towards the human, off to the side, with its head pointing at the homo sapien. Its foot steps rather quick. The human runs, as the Rex runs, silently after him. The homo sapien, idiotically chooses fight over flight and points his spear at the adult Rex. It charges in as the human stabs the spear at its hide, which barely pushes a scale out of place. The Rex rams its head into the human knocking it unconscious. The Rex sniffs its, lifts its head, looks around, bends down again, and lifts the human, walking away. Notice, I didn't add classical roaring. I don't believe Rexes would give away there position, and if alone, had any need for roaring. ^ I rather like this. ;D
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Post by arioch on Jan 5, 2009 0:02:10 GMT
T. rex speed is calculated in 28 km/ h. Now look at your bellies and ask yourselves if you can outrun that in a few seconds... and don´t forget that T. rex hunt with ambush, and have stereoscopic vision If theres any big hervibore near (could happen), humans would be a good snack for him. The juveniles rexes were a lot faster (they were made for run more than any other theropod), too...so the humans future perspective isnt so shiny. I´m not sure to bet for humans with spears against him... T. rex was prepared to beat hervibores like triceratops or ankylosaurs, who were living tanks with horns and bone spikes...how could a bunch of weak simians with wood spears be a challenge against that? at least, that couldnt be a job so easy like a mammoth, and too risky.
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Jan 5, 2009 1:14:05 GMT
I disagree. I believe Tyrannosaurus could run as fast as a charging elephant. Why do you think just because T-Rex is big it couldn't outrun humans? Plus, its a bird relative. C'mon, this bad boy was fast! It had to outrun its dinner, which would have been fairly fast (Especially Hadrosaurs which had no defensive weapons). We're talking 20 -24 miles an hour. Some humans can run that fast, but try running out to a bull African elephant See how that turns out for you. Why risk your entire group hunting Tyrannosaurus Rex? It probably wasn't interested in small prey like humans and Dromeosaurs, I agree, but humans would probably only resort to hunting him if no other food source was available. Why kill an elephant when you can kill zebra? Tyrannosaurus had small arms for a reason, it had a massive head. Who needs arms to hunt when your massive head and teeth are in the way. It was the most well equipped head hunting predator that ever lived. Having the strongest bite force, largest teeth, and strongest neck muscles. Even if humans could stab T-Rex, it wold not kill him. If someone stabbed me with a toothpick I certainly wouldn't fall down in agony and die. ;D ;D ;D I'd say OW! And beat the crud out of the person. ;D Tyrannosaurus would not be worth killing. Plus, they most liley lived in small family groups. C'mon fellow homo sapiens lets go ignore those Hadrosaurs and run into the T-Rex camp! ;D Think about it, if humans were in fact on the menu, this would be a scenario in my opinion. A homo sapien is taking a stroll through a clearing, hiding behind brush the entire way. He walks out from behind one, and 100 yards away, a massive Tyrannosaurus with acute smell and binocular vision stops, raises its head, and stares. The human freezes, and backs away. The Tyrannosaurus silently starts charging, like a bird towards the human, off to the side, with its head pointing at the homo sapien. Its foot steps rather quick. The human runs, as the Rex runs, silently after him. The homo sapien, idiotically chooses fight over flight and points his spear at the adult Rex. It charges in as the human stabs the spear at its hide, which barely pushes a scale out of place. The Rex rams its head into the human knocking it unconscious. The Rex sniffs its, lifts its head, looks around, bends down again, and lifts the human, walking away. Notice, I didn't add classical roaring. I don't believe Rexes would give away there position, and if alone, had any need for roaring. ^ I rather like this. ;D Biomechanical studies have concluded that the average tyrannosaurus could only run about 15-20 miles per hour.... which is about how fast a human at max speed can go.And you know what? If one of those was chasing me, I'd be going as fast as humanly possible... And besides, all you'd have to do is go around a few corners and he wouldn't be able to keep up well. Same goes for most large theropods.
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Jan 5, 2009 1:20:56 GMT
T. rex speed is calculated in 28 km/ h. Now look at your bellies and ask yourselves if you can outrun that in a few seconds... and don´t forget that T. rex hunt with ambush, and have stereoscopic vision If theres any big hervibore near (could happen), humans would be a good snack for him. The juveniles rexes were a lot faster (they were made for run more than any other theropod), too...so the humans future perspective isnt so shiny. I´m not sure to bet for humans with spears against him... T. rex was prepared to beat hervibores like triceratops or ankylosaurs, who were living tanks with horns and bone spikes...how could a bunch of weak simians with wood spears be a challenge against that? at least, that couldnt be a job so easy like a mammoth, and too risky. Well for one, I have looked at my belly, and I have run in several races... I have gone a little under 18 miles per hour once, but I usually go about thirteen.. But still. IF a rex was chasing me, I would never stop running! ;D What's with the "Juvenile rexes were meant to run better than all other theropods" ?? We have very few juvenile tyrannosaur bones, and besides, their bones aren't as developed as adult's bones, so they would be more floppy and... They would not be very good runners. And I bet if you stabbed a trex in the foot, it would eat you, and then could become crippled from a massive infection later and die.
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Post by Tyrannax on Jan 5, 2009 2:36:11 GMT
Several sources say several different things. Your telling me because of 1, out of many mathematical and anatomical estimates, that I should believe that T-Rex couldn't reach 24 miles per hour? Bah. ;D You could maybe escape him, no doubt about that. Its very unlikely though. What? Lol! Stabbing T-Rex, if you could even get close enough and penetrate his skin, would easily heal from such a wound! IT takes MOUNDS of bacteria and a MASSIVE wound, and LACK of food and water to keep a reptile such a Tyrannosaurus from easily healing itself. Reptiles bodies have much, much stronger immune systems. That is why they are so successful.
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Post by tetonbabydoll on Jan 5, 2009 2:45:11 GMT
Several sources say several different things. Your telling me because of 1, out of many mathematical and anatomical estimates, that I should believe that T-Rex couldn't reach 24 miles per hour? Bah. ;D You could maybe escape him, no doubt about that. Its very unlikely though. What? Lol! Stabbing T-Rex, if you could even get close enough and penetrate his skin, would easily heal from such a wound! IT takes MOUNDS of bacteria and a MASSIVE wound, and LACK of food and water to keep a reptile such a Tyrannosaurus from easily healing itself. Reptiles bodies have much, much stronger immune systems. That is why they are so successful. Well, then if that is the case then Big Al got it all wrong. That toe wound got infected and eventually killed it. And, the skeleton itself shows that wounds and infections were running rampant in it. And doesn't the skeleton of Sue, the skull, show signs of poorly healed wounds and infection?
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