Homo Spaiens: Could they survive the Cretaceous?

[tetonbabydoll]

well. This is all pretty much a moot point anyway, I think. I don't figure that a species of humans, or mammals would have managed to evolve in the shadow of the dinosaurs anyway.

What does interest me, and speaks to the sci-Fi nature of this thread, is IF we could mount an expedition back to the time of the dinos, how would a well equipped, expert team with modern weapons and equipment fair? Or, if as ALWAYS happens in these scenarios, the dino gets loose in modern times, how much havoc could it really cause?

I know in JP3, they went to an awful lot of trouble to impress us with that big ass gun, and how good those two guys were with it. And we clearly hear them firing it in the movie, but ole spiney still gets 'em. Did they miss? Or is spiney wearing kevlar? I know, reptile skin is tough. I am talking modern large caliber armor piercing rounds. Surely that would have some effect? Then again, a collision with a moving plane and operating propellor left spiney with barely a scratch. And, apparently, roasting in a lake of flaming fuel merely *disturbed* it some....

In all of these cheesey movies bullets, rockets, tanks are of no use. I know they're tough, but surely a modern tank would toast a rex?

[Tyrannax]

^ Thank you teton for adding to the topic.

This isn't a "Oh, I'm not the bad guy, you are" thread. Why do they always turn into those?

Anyway, I noticed that teton. Spinosaurus was indestructible. I can't see any gun that can be held by a man (Besides missile shooting round guns) hurting a large theropod, but being struck by a plane and being bit with the jaws of a Tyrannosaurus would bring a Spinosaurus to its knees. Its Hollywood, nothings real, so we have to get past this.

An expedition? Having no idea how the past was? They wouldn't survive. They'd be basically guessing on what supplies to take for starters. ;D

[tetonbabydoll]

MMM, guns may not immediately take out a rex, but certainly raptors, for instance. I thought I read somewhere that there was a process for taking down big game like rhinos, breaking them down. Like taking out it's knees and other joints one at a time etc.....Trying to remember.

OH, never mind. It was a passage in the novel, "The Relic". The protagonist was describing it, thinking about it as a way to take out the critter, but it took too much time to accomplish...

You really think some of the higher powered rounds would be useless against a rex? I don't know.

[ningishzida]

Jan 7, 2009 2:51:35 GMT @tetonbabydoll said:

well. This is all pretty much a moot point anyway, I think. I don't figure that a species of humans, or mammals would have managed to evolve in the shadow of the dinosaurs anyway.

What does interest me, and speaks to the sci-Fi nature of this thread, is IF we could mount an expedition back to the time of the dinos, how would a well equipped, expert team with modern weapons and equipment fair? Or, if as ALWAYS happens in these scenarios, the dino gets loose in modern times, how much havoc could it really cause?

I know in JP3, they went to an awful lot of trouble to impress us with that big ass gun, and how good those two guys were with it. And we clearly hear them firing it in the movie, but ole spiney still gets 'em. Did they miss? Or is spiney wearing kevlar? I know, reptile skin is tough. I am talking modern large caliber armor piercing rounds. Surely that would have some effect? Then again, a collision with a moving plane and operating propellor left spiney with barely a scratch. And, apparently, roasting in a lake of flaming fuel merely *disturbed* it some....

In all of these cheesey movies bullets, rockets, tanks are of no use. I know they're tough, but surely a modern tank would toast a rex?

Unlike so many stupid, B-grade dinosaur movies where the hero must kill the 'bad dinosaur' no matter how unrealistic that would be, real scientists are involved with the JP films, and although there are some mistakes, they are still 'intelligent' films compared to the trash made for the 'Sci Fi Channel, like "Aztec Rex".

Virtually everything in the JP films is plausible. As for your complaints about the indestructible Spino, they are unwarranted.

1. The 20mm cannon undoubtedly could kill a theropod with a good shot in a vulnerable area. But we do not know if this weapon was even fired. You only assume that. When terrified, people often don't do rational things. This really happens in war and its different shooting at a real creature chasing you than an ol airplaine hulk. The clip could have fell out of the weapon and lost, or the safety couldn't be disengaged. He may have dropped the rifle and the shots you heard were his less effective pistol. Or he could have missed a moving target.

2. We do not know if a propellor struck the Spino. The blood spray could have been from the human in the spinos jaws. The spino may have just whacked the plane with its tail, just as monitor lizards use if molested by another creature, as it would have imagined the plane.

3. The Spino was much larger, and had powerful forearms, and therfore the logical winner in a fight with the Rex. It seem that though the rex did bite the spino in the neck, it was the "scruff" of the neck, as a cat picks up a kitten. But the spino with its larger jaws got the Rex's whole neck in its jaws.

4. Nothing about the fire would have 'roasted' the Spino. It did realistically repell it though. Of course if this was Sci Fi channel garbage, or a comic book, the spino would have exploded.

The JP films succeeded where other dino stories failed because they seemed realistic to millions and millions of viewers. The writers portrayed the dinos as real creatures, and not just a 'monsters' that the hero must kill despite the odds against him, like in all the 'b' movies written by morons.

As for "going back in time to see dinosaurs", there was a pretty good film on Sci Fi channel (but a real movie, not one made by them.), from a book by Ray Bradbury I think. Sound of Thunder I think is the name. They do kill a big allosaurus with a hi tech weapons, over and over again as a money making scheme for millionair tourists, but only because it was going to drown in a tar pit minutes later anyway. They are careful not to hurt any other dino or creature because they could change time by doing so. In fact, they do change time by accidentally killing a butterfly and must go back to prevent this.

With this in mind, you would probably need to bring non-lethal ways of repelling dinos, like tear gas or taser type shock weapons.

[tetonbabydoll]

True enough, we hear weapons fire but do not know which weapons. I thought the cut on the spino was intended to be damage from the propeller, but again nothing is directly stated. In my own mind, this is ...poor storytelling.

You'll find some disagreement about the Spino Rex fight. It has been discussed here. Most seem to think that, given the rex's phenomonal bite force, it would have crushed the spino's spine with that bite. Also, although the jaws are longer, they do not seem to have been more powerful. They seem to be thinner and more lightly built, and probably were more fragile. i believe that is part of why it is thought to have been a fish eater. I agree about those longer arms though, that would have caused problems for the rex. I am not actually looking to dis the JP films in particular. My thoughts are more on those Sci-Fi channel ...things. I saw aztec rex, and many others. I love the one with the "charcarodontosaurid" loose in LA at the end, with the National Guard unable to stop it. It leaps straight into the air to try for a helicopter...And I hate all those raptor on the loose and can't be killed movies too.

As for Sound of Thunder...I saw it a couple of weeks ago. It did not thrill me. but the allo was cool. I'd have to read the book. Hollywood screws everything up. Do items like tear gas work on modern reptiles? Would they do more than annoy a rex? I don't see cattle prods being strong enough to repel theropods, and as you point out, their hides are probably too tough for the taser prongs to penetrate, and I bet tasers as we know them now would be useless.

[arioch]

Here i go...

-The arms of theropods had a very limited mobility and couldnt grab anything in front of them. Besides that, no, that scene of JP3· is totally absurd (like the whole movie), Spinosaurs couldn have any chance against T-rex or any other theropod of that size, since his build was not meant to fight and his jaws were too fragile to bite without risk something more big than half of his size. The size of Spino was just a intimidating weapon to survive against the true apex predator of his environment, Carcharodontosaurus, or Deltadromeos.

-If you want to kill fast any theropod, no matter his size, just shoot to his "skinny" ankles with a machine gun. A big theropod who fall to the ground, is a dead theropod.

-I felt sad when teton just ignored my bad guy speech.

[stoneage]

;D So Jurrassic park is where you learn about Dinosaurs. Virtually everything in Jurrassic Park is plausible?
So we don't have to worry about T-Rex because if we stand still he won't see us. Watch out for that tree. I guess the smell isn't enough. T-Rex couldn't run that fast, Velociraptor wasn't that big, Dilophosaurus spews sticky poisoness venom, Velociraptors were not that intelligent, why would Pteranodon's attack humans, T-Rex would follow a flare like a Dog etc. Also the Inuit Eskimos have been killing the Bowhead Whale with thrown harpoons since 4500 BC. The Bowhead Whale grows to 66 feet and weighs up to 152 tons(second to only the Blue Whale). The harpoons is basically a type of spear. So since it is much bigger then T-Rex I guess T-Rex could be killed with the right spears. Just hit him with a few harpoons and wait till he dies. ;D

[stoneage]

;D I think the censureship hear is getting a little ridiculous. I cannot even use the word for an eskimo whale hunting spear. Uh Oh now Tyrannax and CT will figure it out! ;D

[tetonbabydoll]

-I felt sad when teton just ignored my bad guy speech

I am sorry Arioch. I am not ignoring you, I just didn't want to get into all of that again. As far as I am concerned it is over, and I would like to start over. Hi Arioch, I'm Kevin. ;D

I do think enough damage applied to a theropods ankles and knees will bring it down, and yes, once down, it is done for.

My supposition was not whether JP was plausible. I just went from could humans survive, to could modern humans survive. And, how much damage could a theropod really cause in modern streets, and how much would it take to bring it down. As I already stated, I feel it would not take much with modern weaponry.

[sbell]

Spears, guns, flares--just us a pit, or a tripwire. If you are facing a beast that is ~4 tonnes or more, on two (relatively) skinny legs, just get someone to act as bait, get them to run in a convoluted path (no straight lines--recent research suggests that an animal like a rex was fast, not manoeuvrable, so a bit of zigzagging would probably save a life) then trip it with a well-secured rope (ideally into a spiked pit, or onto a landmine). When it's down, use as many bullets or harpoons (I just have to do it, because I think it's funny that it turns it into 'thingy') as you need while it is lying on it's stomach.

If someone is really confident, I guess they could also try the Gwangi lasso technique--although the legs would be better targets for the ropes.

[[][][]cordylus[][][]]

Yeah, a trex in real life would obviously take down a spinosaurus. But I doubt anything would mess with a spinosaurus, because those things look big. And a plane of almost any size hitting a spinosaurus at nearly 80 miles per hour would most certainly kill it.

[tetonbabydoll]

It's been a while since I've paid attention to it but wasn't that plane already partially airborn too?

[ningishzida]

Jan 7, 2009 20:04:15 GMT arioch said:

Here i go...

-The arms of theropods had a very limited mobility and couldnt grab anything in front of them. Besides that, no, that scene of JP3· is totally absurd (like the whole movie), Spinosaurs couldn have any chance against T-rex or any other theropod of that size, since his build was not meant to fight and his jaws were too fragile to bite without risk something more big than half of his size. The size of Spino was just a intimidating weapon to survive against the true apex predator of his environment, Carcharodontosaurus, or Deltadromeos.

-If you want to kill fast any theropod, no matter his size, just shoot to his "skinny" ankles with a machine gun. A big theropod who fall to the ground, is a dead theropod.

-I felt sad when teton just ignored my bad guy speech.

Saying a spinosaurs jaws are "fragile" is absolutely ridiculous. They are built almost exactly like a crocodiles, and they have the strongest bite force of any creature alive today. And a 55 foot Spino, could very well have a greater bite force than an 40 foot Rex.

I cannot fathom why you would say the spinos huge arms with formidible claws could not be used to defend itself. While it is true the fore limbs of other theropods became reduced with lack of use, it is the opposite for spinosaurids, that obviously used these arms, possibly for grappling large fish out of the water, as supposed by scientists concerning the Baryonyx. As the Spino fossils are sparce, it too may have had massive clawed forearms like Bary.

Although a 40 foot Spino would be lighter than a 40 foot Rex, a 55-60 foot adult spino would clearly outweigh the rex and outlass it in every other way.

Of course, in most cases, carnivorous dinosaurs of similar size probably avoided each other rather than a fight to the death.

I doubt any real paleontologist now believes a Rex would be superior to a fully grown adult spino based on the latest spino discoveries. It is almost a third larger than the Rex, with bigger jaws, bigger arms, bigger claws, bigger everything.

[ningishzida]

Jan 7, 2009 20:34:56 GMT stoneage said:

;D So Jurrassic park is where you learn about Dinosaurs. Virtually everything in Jurrassic Park is plausible?
So we don't have to worry about T-Rex because if we stand still he won't see us. Watch out for that tree. I guess the smell isn't enough. T-Rex couldn't run that fast, Velociraptor wasn't that big, Dilophosaurus spews sticky poisoness venom, Velociraptors were not that intelligent, why would Pteranodon's attack humans, T-Rex would follow a flare like a Dog etc. Also the Inuit Eskimos have been killing the Bowhead Whale with thrown harthingys since 4500 BC. The Bowhead Whale grows to 66 feet and weighs up to 152 tons(second to only the Blue Whale). The harthingys is basically a type of spear. So since it is much bigger then T-Rex I guess T-Rex could be killed with the right spears. Just hit him with a few harthingys and wait till he dies. ;D

As I have already said, JP wasn't perfect, but it is probably the best thing that happened to dinosaur paleontology in a century, because of all the interest in dinosaurs it created. It brought many more people to museums to see dinosaurs.... more revenue was made, more expeditions could be funded, more discoveries, and research into dinos, all because of Jurassic Park.

No one really knows if a dinosaur could have spit venom. From looking at a horned lizard's skeleton, you would never guess that it shot blood out of its eyes at agressors.. You probably didn't know this or you wouldn't have ridiculed the "spitter".

Yes, Velociraptors are smaller, but there are other "raptors" that large, so no harm done. Velociraptor oviously sounds cool so they used that name for thier raptors. And yes, remember these are genetically modivied dinos, so these could be artificially enlarged with growth hormones and such.

With cars getting turned over, maybe some gasoline spilled on the ground. It has a strong order and would have masked the scents of the humans. Maybe the Rexes had their noses "fixed" as hatchlings to make them less dangerous if they escaped.

Yes, until you move, any predator might not recognize you as prey.

Yes, an inuit can spear a harmless, soft skinned, plankton eating whale. Should we be impressed?

Does that mean they could spear an armor-plated, 40 foot carnivore that sees them as food? Of course not. I doubt any human could even generate the force neccessary to propell a spear through the air and pierce through the keratin scales and bone scute covered, incredibly thick hide to reach any vulnerable spot. They would not even be able to pierce the hide of Leonardo the mummy hadrosaur.

I doubt any human actually facing a rex with stone age weapons would even dare to attack it because it would be suicide. Pure cartoon stuff no adult could take seriously.

[sbell]

Jan 8, 2009 1:02:41 GMT ningishzida said:

Jan 7, 2009 20:04:15 GMT arioch said:

Here i go...

-The arms of theropods had a very limited mobility and couldnt grab anything in front of them. Besides that, no, that scene of JP3· is totally absurd (like the whole movie), Spinosaurs couldn have any chance against T-rex or any other theropod of that size, since his build was not meant to fight and his jaws were too fragile to bite without risk something more big than half of his size. The size of Spino was just a intimidating weapon to survive against the true apex predator of his environment, Carcharodontosaurus, or Deltadromeos.

-If you want to kill fast any theropod, no matter his size, just shoot to his "skinny" ankles with a machine gun. A big theropod who fall to the ground, is a dead theropod.

-I felt sad when teton just ignored my bad guy speech.

Saying a spinosaurs jaws are "fragile" is absolutely ridiculous. They are built almost exactly like a crocodiles, and they have the strongest bite force of any creature alive today. And a 55 foot Spino, could very well have a greater bite force than an 40 foot Rex.

I cannot fathom why you would say the spinos huge arms with formidible claws could not be used to defend itself. While it is true the fore limbs of other theropods became reduced with lack of use, it is the opposite for spinosaurids, that obviously used these arms, possibly for grappling large fish out of the water, as supposed by scientists concerning the Baryonyx. As the Spino fossils are sparce, it too may have had massive clawed forearms like Bary.

Although a 40 foot Spino would be lighter than a 40 foot Rex, a 55-60 foot adult spino would clearly outweigh the rex and outlass it in every other way.

Of course, in most cases, these animals probably avoided each other rather than a fight to the death.

I doubt any real paleontologist now believes a Rex would be superior to a fully grown adult spino based on the latest spino discoveries. It is almost a third larger than the Rex, with bigger jaws, bigger arms, bigger claws, bigger everything.

Paleontologists (Present!) don't waste their time on this kind of crap--unless the Discovery Channel is footing a bill. Fact is, this kind of stuff doesn't matter. At all. Only in the media does size matter.

If you are going to make claims, don't appeal to authority (a fallacy). Back it up with references, or openly state it as a personally held opinion.

[tetonbabydoll]

Does that mean they could spear an armor-plated, 40 foot carnivore that sees them as food? Of course not. I doubt any human could even generate the force neccessary to propell a spear through the air and pierce through the keratin scale and bone scute covered, incredibly thick hide to reach any vulnerable spot. They would not even be able to pierce the hide of Leonardo the mummy hadrosaur.

I doubt any human actually facing a rex with stone age weapons would even dare to attack it because it would be suicide. Pure cartoon stuff no adult could take seriously.

This in no way describes a rex skin sample. It has already been proven that the samples we currently have regarding rex skins show a peppply structure much like the hadrosaur samples. There is no evidence for armor plating, ot bony scutes on rexes. Perhaps on carnotaurus, but that is not the same. I have asked before that we all please try to put the past ugliness beyond us and try to be less antagonistic and insulting. Judging by your tone, I take it you have no intention of doing so. I se no reason whatsoever that anyone should consider a word you type. You have obviously decided to just sit and make as much trouble as possible. I ask again. If we are all so annoying and dumb, in your opinion, then why are you here.

And, again I appeal to the admins with a formal complaint about this member's continued attacks and tone, this time in public.

[ningishzida]

Jan 7, 2009 23:27:44 GMT [][][]cordylus[][][] said:

Yeah, a trex in real life would obviously take down a spinosaurus. But I doubt anything would mess with a spinosaurus, because those things look big. And a plane of almost any size hitting a spinosaurus at nearly 80 miles per hour would most certainly kill it.

Again, you have no idea if the plane actually struck the spino. The spino could have brought it down with a tail whip.

Just a light clip would not have hurt the spino, but could have damaged a rudder or flap. Fragile humans are 'clipped' by cards that would kill them if hit head on.

Heck, a sea gull hitting the canopy can bring down a plane like that.

[tetonbabydoll]

So, again I say, poor, poor, sloppy story telling. They were just too lazy to deal with it, or completely unable to work out a solution. Hence, the total mess we end up with.

[tetonbabydoll]

All right, look. I know that with any movie, but especially ones like this, we just have to put away that little critic and cynic inside of us and just have fun. Movies always have scenes that defy belief or explanation, and many logic and plot holes. I get that, and usually don't have a problem. My problem with JP3 is that I was pulled out of the film many times by a WTF moment. It is by no means the worst movie ever made, and I snap at any chance to see nice dino effects. But this is the weakest of the three, and is poorly acted, and poorly told. At least to me. That wasn't really where I meant to go with this discussion, as we have several threads dedicated to this already, and many views on it.

I will say, that even JP3 had more believable effects than JFC, among others.

I do not buy the armor plating thing. And I think that armor piercing rounds would shred a therapod. Also, all those thick layers of blubber hardly make a whales skin easy to pierce.

[sbell]

Jan 8, 2009 1:28:50 GMT @tetonbabydoll said:

Does that mean they could spear an armor-plated, 40 foot carnivore that sees them as food? Of course not. I doubt any human could even generate the force neccessary to propell a spear through the air and pierce through the keratin scale and bone scute covered, incredibly thick hide to reach any vulnerable spot. They would not even be able to pierce the hide of Leonardo the mummy hadrosaur.

I doubt any human actually facing a rex with stone age weapons would even dare to attack it because it would be suicide. Pure cartoon stuff no adult could take seriously.

This in no way describes a rex skin sample. It has already been proven that the samples we currently have regarding rex skins show a peppply structure much like the hadrosaur samples. There is no evidence for armor plating, ot bony scutes on rexes. Perhaps on carnotaurus, but that is not the same. I have asked before that we all please try to put the past ugliness beyond us and try to be less antagonistic and insulting. Judging by your tone, I take it you have no intention of doing so. I se no reason whatsoever that anyone should consider a word you type. You have obviously decided to just sit and make as much trouble as possible. I ask again. If we are all so annoying and dumb, in your opinion, then why are you here.

And, again I appeal to the admins with a formal complaint about this member's continued attacks and tone, this time in public.

There is only one admin, plus 4 moderators. So far we have discussed it and determined that we are all grown ups here, that we are not schoolyard supervisors, and that no individual has come across, in our view, as especially divisive or derisive. The fact is, people will disagree, and if they didn't discussion would be pointless. We hope that everyone can play nice and get along without continuous interventions--we are here to share in our dino toy hobby; it should just be fun (even if not everyone thinks Battat is the awesomest ;D).