Hell Creek Hadrosaurs

[sid]

Cooooooooooooool...

Dewlaps, snout pouches, whip-like tails, ridges on the back... Wow, dinosaurs sure look more dragon-like these days, aren't they?

[Himmapaan]

Jul 11, 2011 1:18:55 GMT DinoLord said:

Looks like you have to fix it. The same guy who told me about this story told me of a lambeosaurine mummy that shows that the thighs were actually under the skin of the main body, rather than being a distinct clump of bone and muscle. Kind of like in this picture:

I must say I'm finding it hard to reconcile with this (which is not to say that I dispute it outright, of course -- especially not if there is a mummy of it!). Surely that would restrict locomotion a great deal?

[Horridus]

I don't think it would restricted motion. The skin can flex, after all.

[Himmapaan]

Then there is something I'm not understanding. For the thigh to be allowed to move freely, if it was beneath the skin of the body, that seems to suggest that there should be a quantity of very loose skin both in front and behind it... Otherwise, the skin would be required to be exceptionally elastic. At the moment, from the illustration and the explanation, it feels as though half the animal's legs are effectively encased in its body.

[Seijun]

I imagine it as looking and being like an elephant. Elephants don't have distinctly defined thighs or muscles, but they are still able to exhibit a wide range of motion. Yes, I know I am using a mammal to compare to a dino

Don't we have other hadrosaur mummies, like leonardo? Do they show any of these new features?

[Himmapaan]

Jul 11, 2011 17:04:57 GMT Seijun said:

I imagine it as looking and being like an elephant. Elephants don't have distinctly defined thighs or muscles, but they are still able to exhibit a wide range of motion. Yes, I know I am using a mammal to compare to a dino

Ah, then that would make sense to me. Not being distinctly defined.

'Under the skin of the main body' gave me an entirely different impression: imagine if you are wearing a sweater without sleeves -- essentially just a 'sack'. Your arms may have the ability to move in themselves, but they would be at a severe loss to do so, however flexible the material of your sweater.

Words, huh.

[Griffin]

Jul 11, 2011 5:01:40 GMT arioch said:

Jul 11, 2011 3:57:45 GMT Griffin said:

What are you talking about? I think you are just used to hearing about tyrannosaurus rex

Hearing what about tyrannosaurus rex? I can´t see your point.

And I´m not talking about the views of the people on here ( I guess you mean the forum), but the general perception of the paleontology fan community worldwide. So, relax, please.

I'm always relaxed. Nothing I ever say on a forum is ever personal.

Tyrannosaurus rex. Its the most popular dinosaur let alone theropod. It coexisted with hadrosaurs. It ate hadrosaurs. In a fight between rex and a hadro rex wins most likely despite any weaponry or defense a hadrosaur may have. This is depicted a lot because people like rex and they like seeing it kill stuff. You were going on about how hadrosaurs are always depicted as the helpless victim. I'm suggesting that maybe its because its always against a rex in popular media and in which case it would be pretty helpless if caught.

I think you would be surprised if you asked a paleontologist about it. I bet most of them would agree with you that they weren't that wimpy. On that show Jurassic Fight club I think they gave their edmontosaurus some justice. I remember some experts talking up its weaponry and during the fight it killed a few dromaeosaurs.

Regarding this article with the whips and the dewlaps. I forwarded it to a guy I know who's nice enough to critique my artwork. As part of his living he sculpts bone replicas and assembles skeletal mounts for museums. He also is a paleo artist doing a lot of sculpting all with a background in science.

He had never heard of this specimen. He recomended not going around assuming every duckbill had a whip tail just because this article said it did. The nasal pouch was there and its been known about for a while and the dewlap is possible.

I dunno you don't have to go along with what he says if you don't want to but I think its something to think about. I'd like to see more information and hopefully some images of this specimen with these features first before I go putting whips and dewlaps on every duckbill.

[zopteryx]

This is very interesting stuff! But I'm with Griffin, I want to see some photos of this specimen before I completely change my views on hadrosaurs.

I guess the question now is: Can we apply this new look (assuming it's proven to be true) to all hadrosaurs?

[arioch]

Jul 11, 2011 18:48:10 GMT Griffin said:

Jul 11, 2011 5:01:40 GMT arioch said:

Hearing what about tyrannosaurus rex? I can´t see your point.

And I´m not talking about the views of the people on here ( I guess you mean the forum), but the general perception of the paleontology fan community worldwide. So, relax, please.

I'm always relaxed. Nothing I ever say on a forum is ever personal.

Tyrannosaurus rex. Its the most popular dinosaur let alone theropod. It coexisted with hadrosaurs. It ate hadrosaurs. In a fight between rex and a hadro rex wins most likely despite any weaponry or defense a hadrosaur may have. This is depicted a lot because people like rex and they like seeing it kill stuff. You were going on about how hadrosaurs are always depicted as the helpless victim. I'm suggesting that maybe its because its always against a rex in popular media and in which case it would be pretty helpless if caught.

I think you would be surprised if you asked a paleontologist about it. I bet most of them would agree with you that they weren't that wimpy. On that show Jurassic Fight club I think they gave their edmontosaurus some justice. I remember some experts talking up its weaponry and during the fight it killed a few dromaeosaurs.

But Griffin, I concretely talked about hadrosaurs attacked by dromaeosaurs or small young tyrannosaurs, not an adult T.rex (which anyway is smaller and lighter than an adult Anatotitan, and while having the advantadge over him, any random tail blow or push from it could damage him seriously. So it wouldn´t be exactly like stealing candy from a kid ) . So why do you have to bring up that? If I were nasty minded I´d guess you deliberately try to twist my words. Maybe is my fault because I´m not making myself clear, in that case my apologies.

With all respect, Jurassic Fight Club is crap. Sensationalistic wrestling dinosaurs. A "pack" of 15kg dromaeosaurs wouldn´t even dare to attack a big hadrosaur to begin with, and if any paleontologist agree with that is because he´s just a sold out or doesn´t even take seriously his job.

[Griffin]

I guess you weren't so clear.

" not an adult T.rex (which anyway is smaller and lighter than an adult Anatotitan, and while having the advantadge over him, any random tail blow or push from it could damage him seriously."

Sure just like a well placed kick from a zebra can seriously hurt a much lighter lion but they still run away like crazy when a lion is on the scene. And if you were to pit the two against each other my money is still on the lion.

"With all respect, Jurassic Fight Club is crap. Sensationalistic wrestling dinosaurs. A "pack" of 15kg dromaeosaurs wouldn´t even dare to attack a big hadrosaur to begin with, and if any paleontologist agree with that is because he´s just a sold out or doesn´t even take seriously his job."

A bit harsh dude. You cant follow "with all respect" with "is crap". You clearly have no respect for it. Lots of credible people are on that show. I happen to have spoken with George Blasing a few times (he actually helped me get out there into the paleo art field originally by including me on his blog). Hes a good guy and knows his stuff even though hes not a real paleontologist. Sure there are a few inaccuracies but the show is ultimately pretty dang good. The scenarios are hypothetical just like on WWD so not everything should be taken as hard fact but more speculation but still nothing wrong with it. If you watched the episode I believe they said that normally dromies wouldn't go after such big game but there was a special reason in the case of that episode. They were attacking it more for territorial reasons than hunting if I remember correctly.

[Seijun]

Been watching Big Cat Diary and I have been amazed at the number of times prey animals escape from lions, cheetahs, and leopards when it seemed certain that the prey animal was done for. So, I am never a fan of saying that "dino A would definitely loose against dino B" unless the adds are outrageously stacked in the favor of one. For example, "adult tyrannosaur vs anatotitan with broken legs".

Anyway, I am still curious if other hadrosaurs have shown such things as tail whips and undefined leg muscles. Sounds like no based on griffin's friends reply.

[dinoguy2]

Here's a photo of a reindeer:

Here are two drawings of reindeer:
www.teach-nology.com/worksheets/misc/christmas/color/reindeer.gif
www.deer-pictures.com/reindeer_cartoon.jpg

Which is more like the photo? The one with the separate thighs, or the one where the thighs blend into the body?

Now, not only does this not restrict locomotion, but reindeer are among the greatest land-migratory animals of all time, making them among the best walkers. Hadrosaurs would be lucky if their legs were built more like reindeer

As for the 'new' features, the dewlap and whip-tail are, unfortunately, known only from unpublished specimen, possibly in private hands. It may or may not ever be published, but it's good to be a bit skeptical until it is. I used it in the drawing because if it's true, and there's no real reason to think it's not but you never know... well, that would be darn cool.

The nasal pouch and dorsal ridge is very real and has been known since the early 1900s. They were first noted in the famous "Trachodon mummy" specimen (actually Thespesius, or if you prefer Edmontosaurus annectens. Even Tom Holtz has taken a step and gone back to calling this Anatosaurus!). The dorsal ridge is known from several species of hadrosaur in addition to Thespesius: Corythosaurus mummies have it, and so does the Brachylophosaurus mummy Leonardo. All of them have slightly differently shaped individual 'squares' to their ridges. Brachylophosaurus' are particularly cool looking compared to the low rectangles of Thespesius, which you can see here:
csotonyi.com/Brachylophosaurus_family.jpg

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

I don't feel so bad making the legs on my Juvi Para look like they meld into the body so much now.... ;D

[arioch]

Griffin, just looking at how they did the dromaeosaurs or the pachyrhinosaurus horn is enough to know what can you expect from that show. Its basically aimed at kids and doesn´t have any credibility beyond that. I neither have little interest in their excuses to be honest... Everyone has its own standards and thats ok, but you can´t blame me for trying to be objective.

( I´m still wondering what made you think I was victimizing the poor hadrosaurs because he´s always depicted attacked by T.rex. Reading it again there´s nothing in my post insinuating that, unless you intentionally gave it another meaning to make your own point, missing mine in the process. Red herring?)

Jul 12, 2011 0:20:44 GMT Seijun said:

Been watching Big Cat Diary and I have been amazed at the number of times prey animals escape from lions, cheetahs, and leopards when it seemed certain that the prey animal was done for. So, I am never a fan of saying that "dino A would definitely loose against dino B" unless the adds are outrageously stacked in the favor of one. For example, "adult tyrannosaur vs anatotitan with broken legs".

Indeed. I don´t get why (grown up) people keep comparing predatory and hervibore dinosaurs like they were fighting pokemons.

[Griffin]

I just assumed since thats usually the case. No red herring. Its just a really common thing. People saying "prey can defend itself RAWR" around here is like preaching to the choir. I just wanted to nip that in the butt before it turned into a rally. Instead it turned into a really stupid debate.

"Its basically aimed at kids and doesn´t have any credibility beyond that"

Again really really rash statement. Did you ever actually watch the show? I have pretty tough standards when it comes to dino shows but I'm also willing to let some stuff go. Jfight club is higher on my list then say that awfulness Clash of the Dinosaurs.

And I'm not saying they are pokemon for goodness sake. I feel like everything is being considered black or white here. Its not. I just don't think its wrong to say a hadrosaur, injured or not, would try to run away from rather than duke it out with a potential predator.

[Himmapaan]

Jul 12, 2011 0:21:28 GMT dinoguy2 said:

Here's a photo of a reindeer:

Here are two drawings of reindeer:
www.teach-nology.com/worksheets/misc/christmas/color/reindeer.gif
www.deer-pictures.com/reindeer_cartoon.jpg

Which is more like the photo? The one with the separate thighs, or the one where the thighs blend into the body?

Now, not only does this not restrict locomotion, but reindeer are among the greatest land-migratory animals of all time, making them among the best walkers. Hadrosaurs would be lucky if their legs were built more like reindeer

I urge you to re-read my last post, if I may. I already explained that that made sense to me. I'm not unfamiliar with the shape of a leg becoming less distinctly defined where it joins the body; so now that I see what was actually meant, the information is in fact not surprising to me. Hitherto, the phrase 'under the skin of the main body' gave me a wholly different picture, as I tried to describe with the 'sack' sweater metaphor, and it was that image which grated with me about its impeding movement.

Also, as a by-the-by, I think using those two drawings to illustrate the point about their legs is specious, if you'll forgive me. ;D There are many more things to recommend the first picture as being more realistic besides the depiction of the legs alone.