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Post by dinonikes on Dec 17, 2008 1:04:32 GMT
For what it's worth there are paleontoligists that argue over this same lips, no lips subject. The dilophosaurus that Rush Studios made in the early 80's, under the guidance of Gregory Paul, had lips to some extant. I was making a cast of this reconstruction in 2004 for a dino museum in Kenosha, WI , and the paleontologist had me grind off the lips cause he said the dilo was like a croc or alligator, and had no lips. He also criticized the Rush T-Rex for having these same lips, and my Yangchuanosaurus head for having lips. I have no knowledge one way or the other, just sharing my experience with two paleontoligist's differing views.
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Post by Tyrannax on Dec 17, 2008 2:47:09 GMT
Why on earth would you bow to me dinotoyforum. ;D
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Post by crazycrowman on Dec 17, 2008 3:07:20 GMT
For what it's worth there are paleontoligists that argue over this same lips, no lips subject. The dilophosaurus that Rush Studios made in the early 80's, under the guidance of Gregory Paul, had lips to some extant. I was making a cast of this reconstruction in 2004 for a dino museum in Kenosha, WI , and the paleontologist had me grind off the lips cause he said the dilo was like a croc or alligator, and had no lips. He also criticized the Rush T-Rex for having these same lips, and my Yangchuanosaurus head for having lips. I have no knowledge one way or the other, just sharing my experience with two paleontoligist's differing views. Thanks for adding that. I think it comes down to the same sort of thing as feathered vrs non feathered Tyrannosaurs. Both cases are within the realm of possibility, and even somewhere in between. To add "lips" or to render these creatures "lipless" will simply have to remain a personal choice when it comes to representing dinosaurs in art until, and if, further evidence one way or the other comes to light. As of what we know now, there is simply no scientifically reasonable way to say that they definitely had or didn't have "lips".
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Post by ningishzida on Dec 17, 2008 13:35:58 GMT
Only if we concede the theropods without solid pallets like crocodiles didn't seal ther mouths to breath through their nostrils like every other land vertebrate that does not have special adaptations for living in the water.
Of course the museum is going to give their dinosaur model rows of exposed, fearsome sharp teeth. They will sell more postcards if it looks more ferocious. Science has nothing to do with it.
I once saw a bird eat a small snake that nearly escaped through the bird's nostril! Most archosaurs (other than aquatic ones) do not have a pallet, and can seal their mouths so they can inhale air through their nostrils...... (also useful for olfactory reasons).
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Post by sid on Dec 17, 2008 17:56:53 GMT
I see it in these terms: if a theropod had upper teeth roughly the same size of the lower ones (just like in Dromeosaurids,some Tetanurans - if i remember right - small Coelurosaurids like Compy etc),they could have been "lizard" lips which covered ALL the teeth.
But if we talk about beasts like Tyrannosaurids...Well,if you take a Rex's skull and close his mouth,you can CLEARLY see that the upper teeth work almost like the sabres of good ol' Smilodon,still stickin' out for several inches. And i don't think that they had big,flappy lips that covered such BIG teeth ;D
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Post by dinonikes on Dec 17, 2008 18:15:34 GMT
The dilophosaurus was changed because the paleontologist thought that there were no lips, he wasn't concerned about anything else, for you to say its not science isn't fair. He is a very well respected young paleontologist. I don't need lips to breath through my nose- just try this all of you reading this- open your lips- breath through your nose- notice that your tongue comes into play-
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Post by ningishzida on Dec 17, 2008 20:23:18 GMT
I see it in these terms: if a theropod had upper teeth roughly the same size of the lower ones (just like in Dromeosaurids,some Tetanurans - if i remember right - small Coelurosaurids like Compy etc),they could have been "lizard" lips which covered ALL the teeth. But if we talk about beasts like Tyrannosaurids...Well,if you take a Rex's skull and close his mouth,you can CLEARLY see that the upper teeth work almost like the sabres of good ol' Smilodon,still stickin' out for several inches. And i don't think that they had big,flappy lips that covered such BIG teeth ;D Yes, but as Crazycrowman has shown with his skull photos, the Crocodile Monitor has comparably enormous teeth as the T-Rex, yet still has lips. And monitor teeth are virtually identical to Therpod teeth (save for spinosaurids), which suggest other aspects of their mouths would be similar. Now if you simply streched skin over a varanid skull, or an orca skull, as in 'typical dino reconstructions", the animal would look radically different. But we know such reconstructions would be wrong, because varanids and orcas are still alive.
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Post by ningishzida on Dec 17, 2008 20:29:40 GMT
The dilophosaurus was changed because the paleontologist thought that there were no lips, he wasn't concerned about anything else, for you to say its not science isn't fair. He is a very well respected young paleontologist. I don't need lips to breath through my nose- just try this all of you reading this- open your lips- breath through your nose- notice that your tongue comes into play- I suppose it is possible theropods have such big flat mammalian style tongues, but even so, dry air would constantly be exposed to the tongue and promote dehydration. This isn't such a problem with lipless crocs because they are normally in the water much of their lives. There are however, some extinct terrestrial crocodilians, and their skull might reveal differences to suggest they had lips to help prevent dehydration. This deserves more study.
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Post by crazycrowman on Dec 17, 2008 20:55:23 GMT
"Yes, but as Crazycrowman has shown with his skull photos, the Crocodile Monitor has comparably enormous teeth as the T-Rex, yet still has lips." And I also noted that its mouth does not shut fully like that of a crocodilian, or a t rex. "Well,if you take a Rex's skull and close his mouth,you can CLEARLY see that the upper teeth work almost like the sabres of good ol' Smilodon,still stickin' out for several inches." That does appear to be the case. Granted, that alone does not support lips vrs no lips. "The point then, is crocodilians don't need lips because their throat valve seals the mouthway, wheras other reptiles and arhosaurs don't have this aquatic feature, and therefore need lips to seal their mouth's shut." Nor do birds. Birds lack a throat valve and also lack lips. They seem to be making do just fine. So do chelonians, though, most of them have beaks that fit more flush then do the bills of many bird species. Look at a macaws beak. Or a hornbills for that matter. Many bird species do not have mouths that "seal shut". I would agree that the issue of lips vrs non lips is in need of study, but like I said above, for now, its not something anyone can back with anything more valid then a "maybe" - trying to "prove" it one way or another is going to be an exercise in futility, and probably lead to frustration for all involved.
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Post by ningishzida on Jan 2, 2009 3:13:48 GMT
"Yes, but as Crazycrowman has shown with his skull photos, the Crocodile Monitor has comparably enormous teeth as the T-Rex, yet still has lips." And I also noted that its mouth does not shut fully like that of a crocodilian, or a t rex. "Well,if you take a Rex's skull and close his mouth,you can CLEARLY see that the upper teeth work almost like the sabres of good ol' Smilodon,still stickin' out for several inches." That does appear to be the case. Granted, that alone does not support lips vrs no lips. "The point then, is crocodilians don't need lips because their throat valve seals the mouthway, wheras other reptiles and arhosaurs don't have this aquatic feature, and therefore need lips to seal their mouth's shut." Nor do birds. Birds lack a throat valve and also lack lips. They seem to be making do just fine. So do chelonians, though, most of them have beaks that fit more flush then do the bills of many bird species. Look at a macaws beak. Or a hornbills for that matter. Many bird species do not have mouths that "seal shut". I would agree that the issue of lips vrs non lips is in need of study, but like I said above, for now, its not something anyone can back with anything more valid then a "maybe" - trying to "prove" it one way or another is going to be an exercise in futility, and probably lead to frustration for all involved. But the crocodile monitor's teeth overlap exactly the same way, and they are comparably the same size to the Rex's teeth. And then there are the holes in the jaws for blood vessels to support all of the flesh outside the jaws of lizards with lips, and we see them on mammals with lip and on T-Rex and other theropods. Crocs don't have them because they don't have lips. It is really very cut and dry. Those holes for blood vessels must be there for a reason. I suspect Spinosaurids may be an exception and may lack these 'lip holes' because they may have had a similar life style to crocodilians, and certainly the jaws and teeth indicate. It is probable then that only the spinosaurid and smaller dromaesaur/raptor models are accurate then for the latter are often given lips, probably because their heads are even closer in style to monitor lizards. When I first saw the Jurassic Park T Rex, I thought, "Oh boy, zombie undead dinosaurs with all of the flesh on their heads rotted off". If even scientists had not succumbed to the "but I like the zombie dinosaur look with all the teeth exposed" mentality, we might have realistic large theropod reconstructions in which the evidence. like the blood vessel holes for the lips, is actually used, instead of ignored for the sake of 'cool zombie dinos'.
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Post by kuni on Jan 2, 2009 3:30:06 GMT
....I hesitate to help in resurrecting this thread, but don't crocodiles have those same "lip holes"? Ergo, they're not particularly convincing evidence one way or the other?
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Jan 2, 2009 4:30:03 GMT
^^^ Those look a lot like "Lip holes" to me, just a tiny bit smaller.
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Post by ningishzida on Jan 3, 2009 19:56:37 GMT
....I hesitate to help in resurrecting this thread, but don't crocodiles have those same "lip holes"? Ergo, they're not particularly convincing evidence one way or the other? Actually it supports exactly what I am saying. They are much smaller, because we know crocs to not have a great deal of tissue on the outside of their jaws, but they DO have a thin layer of skin. But in animals that WE KNOW have lips and extra tissue on the outside of their jaws and skulls, then yes, the holes are much bigger, because there is more tissue the blood must reach. The real clincher though is how similar varanid teeth are to theropod teeth, indicating an identical mouth structure. Most scientists seem to agree if the theropod is small, but when it comes to large theropods, the lips have to go.
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Jan 3, 2009 21:32:18 GMT
Trex could also close it's mouth fully--- Monitors can't.
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Post by crazycrowman on Jan 3, 2009 22:03:17 GMT
Trex could also close it's mouth fully--- Monitors can't. And in that, they much more resemble crocodilians. So, as that was already been addressed, theropods "logically" (aka there is a good possibility) could have been a cross between the 2 animals. Or not. As for "proving" anything related to this, we may as well argue what color apatosaurs were. My last 2 cents on this topic.
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Post by ningishzida on Jan 3, 2009 23:04:14 GMT
Trex could also close it's mouth fully--- Monitors can't. Of course monitor's can close their mouths completely. I am lookin at one on a big log just a few feet away. And scale wise, crocodile monitors had teeth just as long as t rex, yet are still able to close thier mouths completely and cover them with lips.
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Jan 4, 2009 1:05:38 GMT
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Post by ningishzida on Jan 6, 2009 0:29:36 GMT
Sure they can. Crocodile Monitors have proportionately as long teeth as the T Rex, yet also have lip and can close their mouths completely.
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Post by arioch on Jan 6, 2009 0:52:50 GMT
I would agree...if T-rex jaws wasnt builded to crush, instead the slice action present in the rest of reptiles bite. Rex should be able to bite through the bone and several inches of flesh, and fat lips could be a bit ...uncomfortable for that. That make me doubt... Tough its still quite plausible.
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Post by ningishzida on Jan 7, 2009 1:17:16 GMT
I would agree...if T-rex jaws wasnt builded to crush, instead the slice action present in the rest of reptiles bite. Rex should be able to bite through the bone and several inches of flesh, and fat lips could be a bit ...uncomfortable for that. That make me doubt... Tough its still quite plausible. Of course its plausible when virtually every other theropod group besides spinosaurids and Tyrannosaurids DO HAVE thin slicing teeth almost EXACTLY like monitor lizards, right down to the serrated edges. But don't forget that carnivorous mammals also have crushing jaws that spinter bones......... and they had lips too!
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