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Post by lio99 on Feb 16, 2011 9:34:09 GMT
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Post by Permiantriassic on Feb 16, 2011 17:49:09 GMT
The spiritual world is more real than our 3d existance. One day you will understand btw ive been studying evolution since i was 9.
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Feb 16, 2011 23:15:20 GMT
I would be amazed if any reader of this forum could dunk. I can lawlz @ aliens. Remember in AvP how the predators helped the ancient cultures build pyramids?
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Post by stoneage on Feb 16, 2011 23:31:07 GMT
I would be amazed if any reader of this forum could dunk. I can lawlz @ aliens. Remember in AvP how the predators helped the ancient cultures build pyramids? I thought maybe you could since your 6'3". Do you you have to take a running jump or can you do it just jumping straight up?
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Post by Himmapaan on Feb 17, 2011 6:20:18 GMT
He's not a Utahraptor for nothing, clearly.
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Post by Megaraptor on Feb 17, 2011 8:39:28 GMT
The spiritual world is more real than our 3d existance. One day you will understand btw ive been studying evolution since i was 9. Yes, and one day evolution will produce a flying pig-like creature. And what does studying evolution since you were nine have to do with it? Just because you've been studying something, doesn't mean you've been understanding it. lio99: Permiantriassic deleted a post that she may possibly have considered to "revolutionary" for us, but not before someone (Sbell maybe?) quoted it, and I was responding to that.
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Post by Dinotoyforum on Feb 17, 2011 9:21:49 GMT
As the old axiom goes:
"Keep an open mind – but not so open that your brain falls out"
Putting my admin hat on...
Discussions about alternative realities, spirituality, conspiracy theories, Atlantis and the like, have no place in the 'dinosaurs' section of the forum. If you must bring such topics up on this forum, please keep them to the general section. Thanks. ADMIN
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Post by Megaraptor on Feb 19, 2011 4:36:49 GMT
You locking then, Dr. A?
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Post by foxilized on Feb 20, 2011 22:14:06 GMT
No, he's just moving it to another section, as he said.
I don't think there's anything basically wrong, bad, nor even sick about searching for hidden truths or mysticism or even magic. Indeed I think it is pretty interesting and healthy. After all, the "magic mind" is a part of our nature and somehow helped our species to endure through today meanwhile other species like the Neanderthal with a less developed frontal lobule dissapeared. The capacity to have a poetic cognition of reality somehow helped us to endure. How's that? Neanderthals were survival machines, physiologically speaking. Strong as bulls and smart as wolves. Able to create practical weapons of ultimate technology. Yet they died and we lasted. The main difference between them and us is we were able to explain the world through methaphors, myths and symbols. We are able to identify and idea (or an emotion) and take it out of the brain (or out of the heart) and express it through a painting or a ceramic work. And others are able to translate that object and identify it as what it originally was (the original idea or emotion). Fact that a homo sapiens sees a blot of paint in a cave wall and instead of "blot of paint" he/she identifies it as "bison" is actually an evolutionary miracle. A Neanderthal or older hominid would have never identified that as "bison" but simply as "blot of paint". This what is called art, wich is nothing but an extremely sophisticated kind of languaje. With art you are able to communicate to others ideas or emotions wich would be hard to communicate with other kind of languajes. So the hability to transmutate ideas into symbols and these symbols back into ideas was probably a gift of evolution to us to help us survive.
Why?
My personal theory is myth and fairy tales help to go through fear. Imagine the extreme fear primitive men had on nature, on woods, on nature forces. Naked, with only fire and wood tools, and a whole collections of feral beasts and nature tramps all around. The kind of horror these men surely felt at night was something not even Lovecraft could ever describe today.
I believe the hability to build stories, to invent stories to explain reality, call it gods from the sky, spirits from the trees, myth heroes, treasure legends, lost milenary cities, fountains of inmortality, indestructible weapons, holy saviours... All these helped men to confront the fear to darkness.
So I really believe we fail when our reason pretends looking down on our irrationality. Irrationality created poetry. Irrationality is what allows love to exist. Love and compassion is not reasonable, yet is what makes us human have a soul. "Soul" is nothing more than conscience on our own imperfection, a tolerance to irrationality, and the understanding that each of us need to confront fear as each of us can.
So, please, even if you dislike what Permiantriassic says, I would ask for a little bit more of respect to her even if she is wrong. She's probably simply afraid, looking for answers.
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Post by paleofreak on Feb 20, 2011 23:16:26 GMT
After all, the "magic mind" is a part of our nature In my opinion, that's an hypothesis supported by some but not very strong evidence. We don't know if the neandertal mind was more or less "magic" than ours. We don't know if the "magic mind" was a factor in our survival or their extinction. This is just speculation. I think that the current knowledge doesn't allow us to draw clear mental differences between neandertals and sapiens. About neandertal symbolism: www.donsmaps.com/neandertalsymbols.htmlSpeculation again. We Don't Know. And there is possibly some evidence of neanderthal proto-sculpture: news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3256228.stmOK, but we can have a "healthy" symbolic mind without the need of superstition or conspiranoia
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Post by stoneage on Feb 20, 2011 23:19:29 GMT
No, he's just moving it to another section, as he said. I don't think there's anything basically wrong, bad, nor even sick about searching for hidden truths or mysticism or even magic. Indeed I think it is pretty interesting and healthy. After all, the "magic mind" is a part of our nature and somehow helped our species to endure through today meanwhile other species like the Neanderthal with a less developed frontal lobule dissapeared. The capacity to have a poetic cognition of reality somehow helped us to endure. How's that? Neanderthals were survival machines, physiologically speaking. Strong as bulls and smart as wolves. Able to create practical weapons of ultimate technology. Yet they died and we lasted. The main difference between them and us is we were able to explain the world through methaphors, myths and symbols. We are able to identify and idea (or an emotion) and take it out of the brain (or out of the heart) and express it through a painting or a ceramic work. And others are able to translate that object and identify it as what it originally was (the original idea or emotion). Fact that a homo sapiens sees a blot of paint in a cave wall and instead of "blot of paint" he/she identifies it as "bison" is actually an evolutionary miracle. A Neanderthal or older hominid would have never identified that as "bison" but simply as "blot of paint". This what is called art, wich is nothing but an extremely sophisticated kind of languaje. With art you are able to communicate to others ideas or emotions wich would be hard to communicate with other kind of languajes. So the hability to transmutate ideas into symbols and these symbols back into ideas was probably a gift of evolution to us to help us survive. Why? My personal theory is myth and fairy tales help to go through fear. Imagine the extreme fear primitive men had on nature, on woods, on nature forces. Naked, with only fire and wood tools, and a whole collections of feral beasts and nature tramps all around. The kind of horror these men surely felt at night was something not even Lovecraft could ever describe today. I believe the hability to build stories, to invent stories to explain reality, call it gods from the sky, spirits from the trees, myth heroes, treasure legends, lost milenary cities, fountains of inmortality, indestructible weapons, holy saviours... All these helped men to confront the fear to darkness. So I really believe we fail when our reason pretends looking down on our irrationality. Irrationality created poetry. Irrationality is what allows love to exist. Love and compassion is not reasonable, yet is what makes us human have a soul. "Soul" is nothing more than conscience on our own imperfection, a tolerance to irrationality, and the understanding that each of us need to confront fear as each of us can. So, please, even if you dislike what Permiantriassic says, I would ask for a little bit more of respect to her even if she is wrong. She's probably simply afraid, looking for answers. I agree that some here should cut Permiantriassic some slack. But I think the reason Homo Sapiens outlasted the Neanderthals had more to do with superior long range weapons then the arts. www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7YT2HxWPVUThe earliest evidence of use of glue can still be observed in the cave paintings made by our Neanderthal ancestors in Lascaux, France. These early artists wanted their work to last and mixed glue with the paint they used to help the colors resist the moisture of the cave walls
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Post by Himmapaan on Feb 20, 2011 23:49:35 GMT
I don't think there's anything basically wrong, bad, nor even sick about searching for hidden truths or mysticism or even magic. Indeed I think it is pretty interesting and healthy. After all, the "magic mind" is a part of our nature and somehow helped our species to endure through today meanwhile other species like the Neanderthal with a less developed frontal lobule dissapeared. The capacity to have a poetic cognition of reality somehow helped us to endure. How's that? Neanderthals were survival machines, physiologically speaking. Strong as bulls and smart as wolves. Able to create practical weapons of ultimate technology. Yet they died and we lasted. The main difference between them and us is we were able to explain the world through methaphors, myths and symbols. We are able to identify and idea (or an emotion) and take it out of the brain (or out of the heart) and express it through a painting or a ceramic work. And others are able to translate that object and identify it as what it originally was (the original idea or emotion). Fact that a homo sapiens sees a blot of paint in a cave wall and instead of "blot of paint" he/she identifies it as "bison" is actually an evolutionary miracle. A Neanderthal or older hominid would have never identified that as "bison" but simply as "blot of paint". This what is called art, wich is nothing but an extremely sophisticated kind of languaje. With art you are able to communicate to others ideas or emotions wich would be hard to communicate with other kind of languajes. So the hability to transmutate ideas into symbols and these symbols back into ideas was probably a gift of evolution to us to help us survive. Why? My personal theory is myth and fairy tales help to go through fear. Imagine the extreme fear primitive men had on nature, on woods, on nature forces. Naked, with only fire and wood tools, and a whole collections of feral beasts and nature tramps all around. The kind of horror these men surely felt at night was something not even Lovecraft could ever describe today. I believe the hability to build stories, to invent stories to explain reality, call it gods from the sky, spirits from the trees, myth heroes, treasure legends, lost milenary cities, fountains of inmortality, indestructible weapons, holy saviours... All these helped men to confront the fear to darkness. So I really believe we fail when our reason pretends looking down on our irrationality. Irrationality created poetry. Irrationality is what allows love to exist. Love and compassion is not reasonable, yet is what makes us human have a soul. "Soul" is nothing more than conscience on our own imperfection, a tolerance to irrationality, and the understanding that each of us need to confront fear as each of us can. So, please, even if you dislike what Permiantriassic says, I would ask for a little bit more of respect to her even if she is wrong. She's probably simply afraid, looking for answers. I am yet too ignorant to opine as to the extent in which these played in the survival of sapiens, but I wholeheartedly agree with everything else.
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Post by foxilized on Feb 20, 2011 23:59:24 GMT
After all, the "magic mind" is a part of our nature In my opinion, that's an hypothesis supported by some but not very strong evidence. Don't you agree on the different functions of the left/right brain? I am aware of that. I believe they had a symbolic mind and probably even languaje. The more primitive way of communicating myths is indeed theatre. Neanderthals could probably speak more or less complicated stories though mimic and animal/character personalization. But there's a MAIN difference between their art (if it indeed existed, wich I believe it did) and Sapiens: there are remains of Sapiens art today, not Neanderthals. The basic difference between theatre and other "on stage" arts like jazz music is it is created purely "for the moment" with no intention to last. Other arts like Sapiens', and this is totally based on objective facts, is Sapien's artworks lasted. When you paint something you spect it to last more than just for the moment. Same when you sculpt. Your objective is the artwork remains to be "perceived" by others even after your death. -- Now this points to a brain wich is quite more complicated than the practical "here and now" (short-term plans) wich is more related to the purely animal brain. If you have such a conscience of time and specially that other persons will exist after your death and might appreciate your art-message, you do have a mentality wich includes pretty long-term plans. This is a subject wich relates to art since the beginning of time. The artist pretending to be "inmortal" through his/her artwork (sound familiar?). It is related to the very same need to "survive" though the dna passed to the spawn so common in animals. What is amazing is Sapiens, though the symbolic mind, elaborated a way to "survive" through the personal messages left in artworks. That is you don't need to assure children for your "essence" to last, you can also do it with your artwork. As said I believe Neanderthals surely had a sort of "spiritual" mind too. They actually buried their dead ones in a symbolic posture wich reminds a foetus coming back to the wound of a mother. But there's a main difference between a Neanderthal protoesculpture and a Windeldorf Venus: the venus was delicately made, they probably spent years on achieveing the nicest technique to sculpte that. The artwork itself mattered. They cared for it to be durable. Same the paintings, they delicately chose the best ocres, and the nicest parts of the cave to assure it will last. There was probably a "proffesion" entirely dedicated to make these artworks. Neanderthals were awesome sculpting practical tools but as far as we know not so dedicated to sculpting. So, difference is Sapines gave a supreme importance to the objects. The difference is not so much on what they could perceive, but on how much importance they gave to it. Also, languaje and communication wich is permanent is what helps develop a culture. Symbols from the past anybody can have access to without needing a person to transfer them. Culture creates cohesion. And cohesion assures survival. 100% agree. I don't think I am bringing that at all. [I agree that some here should cut Permiantriassic some slack. But I think the reason Homo Sapiens outlasted the Neanderthals had more to do with superior long range weapons then the arts. I don't know, this is all a theory. Thing is nobody knows. But I assume you are talking about warfare between Neands and Sapiens? To me it's hard to believe war was created so early... Warriors at that age? For what? Why do you need to exterminate a whole especies when you already have skills enough to survive by your own? Besides, with so few habitants in the Earth at that age, why would you need to steal the land to others? The "warrior" as a proffesion was created later during the metal ages. Only when the agriculture was born the population started to grow so much that food started to be not enough and therefore was easier to steal it from the neighbours. You cannot exterminate a human species unless you really hate them and is your ultimate goal and have enough "warriors" willing to do the task -searching for them and all-. A war between hunter/recolectors wich ends on the total extinction of one of them? Sounds pretty improbable to me...
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Post by Horridus on Feb 21, 2011 0:14:56 GMT
our Neanderthal ancestors in Lascaux, France. A word of caution here - Homo neanderthalensis actually co-existed with Homo sapiens, and shared a common ancestor, but Homo neanderthalensis didn't evolve into Homo sapiens. However you could still say some of us had Neanderthal ancestors if the two species interbred, as is believed by some people.
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Post by foxilized on Feb 21, 2011 0:56:48 GMT
The earliest evidence of use of glue can still be observed in the cave paintings made by our Neanderthal ancestors in Lascaux, France. These early artists wanted their work to last and mixed glue with the paint they used to help the colors resist the moisture of the cave walls I'm confused, do you please have a link for that? I think Lascaux' paintings belong to Homo Sapiens. No Neanderthal cave painting has ever been found... as far as I know...
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Post by stoneage on Feb 21, 2011 2:04:07 GMT
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Post by paleoferroequine on Feb 21, 2011 4:56:55 GMT
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Post by paleofreak on Feb 21, 2011 7:42:59 GMT
Don't you agree on the different functions of the left/right brain? Er... ? I was talking about the hypothesis that the human mind is "hardwired" to believe in magic, superstition, spirits, gods, etc. OK, we can tell a lot of differences between their "art" and our ancestors art, but I think it's not right to venture a big difference in their minds and state it as a fact. Sometimes we can't even be sure if some sapiens' art is really sapiens'
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Post by Himmapaan on Feb 21, 2011 9:18:26 GMT
Satyrs and fauns were not imaginary after all. ;D
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Post by Permiantriassic on Feb 21, 2011 21:38:40 GMT
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