Oooooookkkkaaaayyy then...

[tetonbabydoll]

Wheather you do or don't do feathered raptors, I think THIS is just absurd....




The class may now discuss .

[sid]

Gh...

It's not a bad drawing in itself,and that critter isn't too feathered,but...It's not something i think ever happened

[arioch]

I cant imagine the dromaeosauridae as creatures who can climb on trees. For an animal who weight 15 kilograms or more and lack opposable fingers, this is too hard, despiting the large claws and agile build. They were´nt more than ground predators.

[[][][]cordylus[][][]]

I think this could happen. After all, rahonavis and microraptor probably "flew" from trees, and to do that, you have to climb them first. I actually have a few drawings of dienonychus dragging baby tenontosaurs up trees, maybe to hide them from other predatory animals at the time.

Although I don't know why the raptor in the drawing is drooling and holding it's hands in that odd position.

[Tyrannax]

Cool, but odd. A debatable ability!

[kuni]

There's a really cool bit in Holtz/Rey's Dinosaurs book that describes a behavior where birds flap their wings to provide traction when running up tree trunks, and it's speculated that this might have been how "raptors" used their feathered wings, though Holtz suggests that Utahraptor was probably too big for this sort of stunt.

But in any case, with wing-assisted incline running(WAIR) and talons used like climbing pitons, tree-dwelling raptors are not a particularly weird possibility, especially for young or small animals.

[tomhet]

Hey, the current theory says that they flapped until they flew so climbing a tree doesn't sound improbable.

[kuni]

Holtz elaborated on this idea here:
dml.cmnh.org/2003Jan/msg00291.html

[[][][]cordylus[][][]]

Dec 29, 2008 18:37:28 GMT @tomhet said:

Hey, the current theory says that they flapped until they flew so climbing a tree doesn't sound improbable.

Really? I thought it was they glided until they flapped, and then when they flapped it was true flying...

[[][][]cordylus[][][]]

Maybe hopping up into trees would have allowed them to get a better vantage point?

[kuni]

The most absurd thing about the picture is the lack of feathers, followed by the position of the hands - large feathers on the forearms would have made it impossible.

[sid]

Dec 29, 2008 19:58:25 GMT kuni said:

The most absurd thing about the picture is the lack of feathers, followed by the position of the hands - large feathers on the forearms would have made it impossible.

Medium sized and big Dromeosaurids probably DIDN'T have large feathers on the arms...At least that's what i think ;D

[[][][]cordylus[][][]]

^ Why do you think that sid? (forgeries aside)

[kuni]

Dec 29, 2008 23:50:26 GMT sid said:

Medium sized and big Dromeosaurids probably DIDN'T have large feathers on the arms...At least that's what i think ;D

Bah, go get some evidence, sid... ;D

[sid]

Dec 29, 2008 23:54:09 GMT [][][]cordylus[][][] said:

^ Why do you think that sid? (forgeries aside)

Because it seems more logical,at least to me...Predators like Velociraptor,Deinonychus,Utahraptor and such probably used their hands to grabbing prey and fighting,therefore large structures on their arms,like feathers or quills,would have been damaged.

You could say:"But Sinornithosaurus HAD feathers on its arms!"- yes,but bear in mind that Sino was smaller and had longer arms than,say,a Deinonychus...It had still some "atavisms" (remember that the ancestors of Dromeosaurids were lil' flying critters like Microraptor) which,as millions of years passed,slowly disappeared...And then there's the possibility that Sinornithosaurus could have been an arboreal critter,so long arms and feathers on 'em could have been useful,but that's just my two cents on the matter

[Tyrannax]

Yes, it doesn't make sense to me how a large Dromeosaurid like Utahraptor or Deinonychus would have large feathers on their forearms. They most certainly didn't fly, and claw marks tell us that they used their teeth, toe claw, and hands when fighting. Like sid said, they would have been easily damaged. I'm not against large Dromeosaurs having some sort of feather like structures somewhere on its body, but the arms sound odd. Then again, the feathers could have been stronger then the feathers of today, or the Raptors may have been careful not to damage them during a fight.

[arioch]

There are direct evidence of feathers in Velociraptor mongoliensis based on the presence of quill knobs on the posterior forearms...Velociraptor was a medium size predator...

And, thanks to an awesome fossil, we know that Velociraptor used his hands to grab the protoceratops neck crest, while rip his stomach...

There were feathers there, but maybe quite small.

[sid]

Dec 30, 2008 17:49:59 GMT arioch said:

There are direct evidence of feathers in Velociraptor mongoliensis based on the presence of quill knobs on the posterior forearms...Velociraptor was a medium size predator...

And, thanks to an awesome fossil, we know that Velociraptor used his hands to grab the protoceratops neck crest, while rip his stomach...

There were feathers there, but maybe quite small.

Nah...I don't buy that "find",sorry

the sings on that ulna look more like scratches or bumps (probably due to the fossilization) than real "calami" (i don't know the english word for that,the points of "insertions" for feathers,i mean)

[arioch]

...

Too much to be coincidence, don´t you think?

If the great majority of paleontologists and paleoartists agrees in consider that a trace of feathers in the living animal, its because it deserve some credibility. Considering the feathered Velociraptor ancestors, I give more credit to that who have more chance to be, than a mere coincidence or accident.

[[][][]cordylus[][][]]

Dec 30, 2008 16:18:43 GMT sid said:

Dec 29, 2008 23:54:09 GMT [][][]cordylus[][][] said:

^ Why do you think that sid? (forgeries aside)

Because it seems more logical,at least to me...Predators like Velociraptor,Deinonychus,Utahraptor and such probably used their hands to grabbing prey and fighting,therefore large structures on their arms,like feathers or quills,would have been damaged.

You could say:"But Sinornithosaurus HAD feathers on its arms!"- yes,but bear in mind that Sino was smaller and had longer arms than,say,a Deinonychus...It had still some "atavisms" (remember that the ancestors of Dromeosaurids were lil' flying critters like Microraptor) which,as millions of years passed,slowly disappeared...And then there's the possibility that Sinornithosaurus could have been an arboreal critter,so long arms and feathers on 'em could have been useful,but that's just my two cents on the matter

thank you for your answer, Sid.