Hooray for the dino poachers!

[ningishzida]

This discussion came up in another thread, but I believe it is a topic that deserves its own place.

Several people here said how terrible it was that there were 'private' fossil collectors that they termed "poachers".

But where would paleontology be if it weren't for those private collectors?

Sue, the world's most famous T-Rex was found by a private collector.

The Holotype Baryonyx was found by a private collector.

The dal Saso Spinosaur, now the biggest land predator ever known was found by a private collector.

The list could go on and on.

Dinosaur Paleontology would be far less interesting if it were not for those dastardly private collectors.

How dare they think they should have the right to look for fossils. Only someone rich enough to get a master's degree or phd deserves to look for fossils.

This is the same elitism we see since the dawn of time. "Only the nobility are allowed to hunt in the king's forest". The peasants may like deer meat too, but they are peasants, and therfore they don't matter.

There was once a time when any kid, rich or poor could go out and try to find a dinosaur. But now that's against the law...... only the 'nobility' has that privelege.

But lets thank those private collectors who still dare to search, despite the risks, and have brought us most of the greatest dinosaur finds of all time.

[[][][]cordylus[][][]]

I have nothing against private fossil collectors. However, I do hate the ones who damage fossils/steal fossils in the field, when those would be very appreciated by museums and paleontologists and such.


You most likely just misunderstood what people were saying--- They were saying they didn't like the "poaching" of fossils, not private people collecting them. After all, almost everybody here has a fossil or two in their collection.

[stoneage]

;D I was wondering Ning when did the dawn of time start? ;D

[kuni]

Some of the most famous finds in paleontology were found by non-paleontologists, BUT...

...there's a difference between finding a cool skull and letting some paleo people know versus knocking the teeth out for a quick buck.

[tetonbabydoll]

We are lucky that Sue is in a museum. Several private bidders were at that auction, and we may have lost good data in that case. I am not talking abut amateurs who go out, or people funded privately, I am talking about those who break the law to find and destroy fossils for profit. Those who buy these on e-bay, or wherever are contributing to the problem. As long as there is a market, this will happen. It is one thing to find a specimen, document it, study it, publish the evidence, and mount the animal in your museum, or dang bathroom for that matter, another entirely to hack a piece apart to sell. Personally I think Sue should have stayed with the museum that found her, and that whole auction was a bad idea. It is nice to see some of us so...cavelier in the theft and destruction of valuable finds though....

[sbell]

Jan 17, 2009 4:41:24 GMT @tetonbabydoll said:

We are lucky that Sue is in a museum. Several private bidders were at that auction, and we may have lost good data in that case. I am not talking abut amateurs who go out, or people funded privately, I am talking about those who break the law to find and destroy fossils for profit. Those who buy these on e-bay, or wherever are contributing to the problem. As long as there is a market, this will happen. It is one thing to find a specimen, document it, study it, publish the evidence, and mount the animal in your museum, or dang bathroom for that matter, another entirely to hack a piece apart to sell. Personally I think Sue should have stayed with the museum that found her, and that whole auction was a bad idea. It is nice to see some of us so...cavelier in the theft and destruction of valuable finds though....

Sue was never originally part of a museum--she was collected by a professional fossil collector (who spent time in jail over it). It was the landowner that sold her.

I like the rules here in Saskatchewan--if you do not have a permit, you are breaking the law. Period. No one can sell anything.

Unless it sneaks across the border, which of course never happens... But I'm sure those fossil poachers are just trying to make the great discoveries that only amateurs can make. And not a quick buck.

[tetonbabydoll]

Eh, I know about Sue, but wasn't she taken to a little South Dakota museum for prep, before being confiscated by the Feds?

[ningishzida]

Jan 17, 2009 4:41:24 GMT @tetonbabydoll said:

We are lucky that Sue is in a museum. Several private bidders were at that auction, and we may have lost good data in that case. I am not talking abut amateurs who go out, or people funded privately, I am talking about those who break the law to find and destroy fossils for profit. Those who buy these on e-bay, or wherever are contributing to the problem. As long as there is a market, this will happen. It is one thing to find a specimen, document it, study it, publish the evidence, and mount the animal in your museum, or dang bathroom for that matter, another entirely to hack a piece apart to sell. Personally I think Sue should have stayed with the museum that found her, and that whole auction was a bad idea. It is nice to see some of us so...cavelier in the theft and destruction of valuable finds though....

You still don't get it. In the cases I cited, some of the world's most important dinosaur finds would have never been found if the professionals had their way and were able to completely outlaw anyone but them FIELD collecting fossils.

Most of these amateurs passionately love what they do, and would never dream of deliberately destroying a dinosaur skull. But in the Third Word where starving people stay alive picking dinosaurs teeth out of the desert, if those same "collectors" would be given a reward for finding an intact skull, they wouldn't be tempted to take the teeth out of it. But even this is near-fantasy.......... even the tooth collectors know how much more valuable a skull would be, and would be able to recover it and find a collector or museum to buy it.

Because the governments cannot prevent amateurs from looking, by making it against the law only CAUSES more fossils to dissapear. In Britain such laws a far less draconian, and amateur finders are paid by museums if they find a rare artifact. In many other countries, the person couldn't show it to a museum or get arrested.

So back to the original post, yes, I am glad the amateurs are out there finding new dinosaur, but disappointed some governments promote the destruction or loss of information from many privately found fossils because governments bow down to the professionals who cannot tolerate private collectors finding dinsoaurs too.

Oh, I forgot Leonardo, the best ever dino mummy........ probably never found wihout amateur "poachers".

[[][][]cordylus[][][]]

Nobody is saying amateur fossil collectors are bad. HOWEVER, everybody is saying the people who take teeth out of skulls and that kind of thing to make a quick buck are bad.

[tomhet]

They do take the teeth out, whether you want to believe it or not. Private collecting of significant specimens is wrong.

And receiving stuff from dealers is also wrong, no matter how excitingly feathered the fossil is.

[bolesey]

Jan 18, 2009 13:43:55 GMT ningishzida said:

Sue, the world's most famous T-Rex was found by a private collector.

The Holotype Baryonyx was found by a private collector.

The dal Saso Spinosaur, now the biggest land predator ever known was found by a private collector.

The list could go on and on.

You forgot Irritator. The only articulated and most complete Spinosaur skull known to date.

Only it was butchered with glue and plaster and doctored up to look like a pterosaur by commercial fossil dealers who didn't know what they were doing.

You also forgot Archaeoraptor. Two highly important species of feathered dinosaur. Two specimens crudely joined together in an attempt to produce a more impressive looking fossil.

And the Dal Sasso Spinosaurus was in a private collection since the 1970s. The danger with such specimens in private hands is that even if the collector was careful, the fossil may be inherited by oblivious relatives.

When Walker found Baryonyx, he reported it to the British Museum, and it was excavated properly by a crew from the museum.

The Larsons, who excavated Sue are very diligent people who have a good reputation in the paleo community. They are also responsible for the first ever T.rex skin impressions. They map and record things carefully and have supplied skeletons to museums the world over. To my mind they are no less legitimate than than Mary Anning or the Sternbergs.

I'm entirely in favour of responsible private collecting. This means collecting where permitted, keeping good records, reporting important finds to museums and the scientific community, and it can often mean leaving fossils in the ground rather than hacking them up. I don't think Museums have the resources or the storage space to collect everything, but they shouldn't have to compete with private collectors.

I believe that many of the fossils sold on ebay, at tucson, and on various shops and websites were collected irresponsibly, destructively, illegally, prepared and restored crudely, and sold deceptively. They may have started out as something worthwhile, but they are basically junk now.