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Post by Flipyap on Jan 27, 2009 7:00:15 GMT
Well the title kinda sums up what I am about to ask. Has there ever been any solid evidence that the horns of a Triceratops or other Ceratopsian had a Keratin sheath? If there is any fossil evidence I am curious on how common it is and or what the colour may be. Also, if possible, are there any pictures? I'm trying to do a little research, but I keep coming up with only speculation that it existed.
At the very least, what are your thoughts on the subject?
-Chris
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Post by tetonbabydoll on Jan 27, 2009 10:14:12 GMT
I don't think the keratin itself, if there, has ever fossilized. Not that I have heard of anyway. Color, I suspect, was as variable for dinos as for modern horned animals. There is no way to say what color any part of a dino was. The only clues we have about that I think are several specimens with sections of skin that have bands of darker areas on them. What color the skin or bands were, however, remains just a guess.
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Post by sid on Jan 29, 2009 15:59:54 GMT
But in modern animals,as far as i remember,the horns are not much colored...Only various degrees of black and white,so i don't think Ceratopsians' horns were more than that,in terms of colors...But i could be wrong
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Post by tetonbabydoll on Jan 29, 2009 16:54:23 GMT
there is no way to tell.
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Post by Tyrannax on Jan 29, 2009 20:15:13 GMT
Triceratops being made of keratin? Hmm....I'm not sure, but I do know that keratin decomposes easily.
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Post by crazycrowman on Jan 29, 2009 23:45:58 GMT
It is very likely that much like the horns of modern animals, Ceratopsians (among others)had sheaths keratin on its horns. Its also likely that dinosaurs that had beaks had keratin sheaths over their beaks as well. Both modern birds and reptiles do.
Unfortunetly, keratin would probably not have preserved well, if at all, and if it did, only in very special cases.
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Post by joshwennes on Jan 30, 2009 15:12:29 GMT
The Black Hills Institute of Geological Research (BHIGR) has a triceratops specimen that contains not only different skin imprints(from the underside of the neck and the rear/haunch), but there's evidence of at least where keratin was. I've seen this specimen, don't have pictures, but I know Peter Larson of BHIGR presented this specimen via poster at the 2007 SVP in Austin, TX. From what I saw, the trike's horn was fossilized with a small portion of something looking like an extension if that makes sense. There was something else there, and it's fairly convincing that it's remnants of keratin. We've claimed that dino horns/claws were sheathed in keratin for years, now maybe we have some evidence to back it up. I haven't been to BHIGR's museum for about a year now, so I think I'll be scheduling a visit and try and talk to Pete Larson about the whole deal and see what's new. I do remember this from the skin impressions, they were 2 totally different patterns which is quite remarkable. Makes sense that the skin on the back/outer portion of the legs could be different from what covered the under side of the neck and belly. Cool stuff!
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Post by dinonikes on Jan 30, 2009 18:06:34 GMT
The Black Hills Institute of Geological Research (BHIGR) has a triceratops specimen that contains not only different skin imprints(from the underside of the neck and the rear/haunch), but there's evidence of at least where keratin was. I've seen this specimen, don't have pictures, but I know Peter Larson of BHIGR presented this specimen via poster at the 2007 SVP in Austin, TX. From what I saw, the trike's horn was fossilized with a small portion of something looking like an extension if that makes sense. There was something else there, and it's fairly convincing that it's remnants of keratin. We've claimed that dino horns/claws were sheathed in keratin for years, now maybe we have some evidence to back it up. I haven't been to BHIGR's museum for about a year now, so I think I'll be scheduling a visit and try and talk to Pete Larson about the whole deal and see what's new. I do remember this from the skin impressions, they were 2 totally different patterns which is quite remarkable. Makes sense that the skin on the back/outer portion of the legs could be different from what covered the under side of the neck and belly. Cool stuff! What were the skin patterns like? I am going to be doing a sculpture of Triceratops and would like to know what sort of skin they had- ??
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Post by Meso-Cenozoic on Jan 30, 2009 23:03:57 GMT
Thanks, Josh! Found that very interesting!!
My question, about the Tric, has always been about the shape of the horns. Some depict them curving up, some curving down, and others straight out. Hmmm?
Anyone know what the most recent belief is?
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Post by tetonbabydoll on Jan 31, 2009 0:31:05 GMT
Thanks, Josh! Found that very interesting!! My question, about the Tric, has always been about the shape of the horns. Some depict them curving up, some curving down, and others straight out. Hmmm? Anyone know what the most recent belief is? Last I saw, all were correct.... Apparently, the thought now is that the trike horns do through a few different phases as the animal grows, some fairly dramatic differences from what I read.
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Post by Meso-Cenozoic on Jan 31, 2009 1:22:15 GMT
Yeah, I knew they developed and grew as they grew. But, I didn't know they could change direction, lol!
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Post by tetonbabydoll on Jan 31, 2009 1:31:37 GMT
Yeah, I knew they developed and grew as they grew. But, I didn't know they could change direction, lol! Well, apparently they did. i saw a study on that, I think it may have been an old PT. I may google it and see. But, if that was right they really grew in weird.
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Post by Meso-Cenozoic on Jan 31, 2009 1:54:23 GMT
Problem solved! Found a pic of one that's still living. They grew straight out!
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Post by tetonbabydoll on Jan 31, 2009 2:39:47 GMT
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Post by Flipyap on Jan 31, 2009 6:51:26 GMT
The Black Hills Institute of Geological Research (BHIGR) has a triceratops specimen that contains not only different skin imprints(from the underside of the neck and the rear/haunch), but there's evidence of at least where keratin was. I've seen this specimen, don't have pictures, but I know Peter Larson of BHIGR presented this specimen via poster at the 2007 SVP in Austin, TX. From what I saw, the trike's horn was fossilized with a small portion of something looking like an extension if that makes sense. There was something else there, and it's fairly convincing that it's remnants of keratin. We've claimed that dino horns/claws were sheathed in keratin for years, now maybe we have some evidence to back it up. I haven't been to BHIGR's museum for about a year now, so I think I'll be scheduling a visit and try and talk to Pete Larson about the whole deal and see what's new. I do remember this from the skin impressions, they were 2 totally different patterns which is quite remarkable. Makes sense that the skin on the back/outer portion of the legs could be different from what covered the under side of the neck and belly. Cool stuff! Was what was preserved a smoother surface, atop of the normal fossil? Something like almost a small glossy protective layer per say?
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Post by tetonbabydoll on Jan 31, 2009 7:20:29 GMT
I've looked for pics or info on this, but I am coming up empty. I did find more on horn growth though. As it grew it was pointed up and curved backwards, like in carnegie's original triceratops. As the animal aged, the horns straightened and faced more forward. I did find this pic of a year old trike: and the horn of a sub-adult:
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Post by tetonbabydoll on Jan 31, 2009 7:33:34 GMT
I am also reading that they have found battle damage on the horns and frills. Scars on the horns and cheek spikes indicate sparring, or combat with other trikes. All this has long been suspected, or assumed, but I guess we are getting evidence of it now. On a google search for fossil Keratin, I found material about the keratin in fossil feathers, and they apparently can now identify the colors of those feathers. Hm. I shall keep looking
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Post by Tyrannax on Feb 1, 2009 1:15:38 GMT
They have found horn wounds on the bones of Tyrannosaurs. Also, they have found bite marks in a few Triceratops specimens. I'm unsure where...was it the frill..
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Post by tetonbabydoll on Feb 1, 2009 2:41:06 GMT
Apparently, they have found triceratops bone in fossil rex dung. Proves they ate trikes, doesn't prove they killed "em.
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Feb 1, 2009 3:54:00 GMT
One way to prove trexes preyed on trikes would be scientists finding healed trex bite marks on trikes.
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