1/15 Ceratosaurus on Nest

[Libraraptor]

I found two Mei and one Lufengosaurus pic!







The Lufengosaurs also have their legs on the side, and it looks quite credible to me.

[stoneage]

Yes if dinosaurs were related to camels.

[Griffin]

"The Lufengosaurs also have their legs on the side, and it looks quite credible to me."

I wouldnt trust it. There are actual prosauropod tracks on the fossil record that includes an imprint of it laying down. Its not with its legs to the side its straight down with both arms and legs resting on either side of it.

[Seijun]

My pet dove sometimes relaxes on her side, and our hawks will sometimes lay with their legs sprawled out in very odd ways. Everyone would agree that those are not normal avian resting positions, but that did not make those positions impossible.

[Griffin]

Aug 22, 2011 21:29:00 GMT Seijun said:

My pet dove sometimes relaxes on her side, and our hawks will sometimes lay with their legs sprawled out in very odd ways. Everyone would agree that those are not normal avian resting positions, but that did not make those positions impossible.

I suppose. I saw a chicken sit on its side one time and a rhea at our zoo sit with its legs out behind it but for every time they do that they hunker down the "normal" way a million times. My point is we have actual imprints of certain dinosaurs resting a certain way. Why not just depict that since we know thats what they were doing? I use guess work when there are gaps to fill. I don't see a gap when it comes to this.

[Seijun]

If a Lufengosaur was physically capable of laying half on its side, then I see no reason why it shouldn't be ok to depict one like that. However, if there are numerous imprints (i.e. not just one) of a particular dinosaur always in the same resting pose, then it might be error to depict an entire herd of those same dinosaur all resting in a different pose.

[stoneage]

Aug 23, 2011 2:27:57 GMT Seijun said:

If a Lufengosaur was physically capable of laying half on its side, then I see no reason why it shouldn't be ok to depict one like that. However, if there are <u>numerous</u> imprints (i.e. not just one) of a particular dinosaur always in the same resting pose, then it might be error to depict an entire herd of those same dinosaur all resting in a different pose.

Do you have pictures of your birds in these poses?

[Seijun]

No, I don't think so unfortunately. I don't live with my parents anymore so I no longer have access to their hawks (too far away). I have this very vivid memory though of the coopers hawk laying on its side with one leg sticking way out. ;D He was somewhat young at the time. I don't think the hawks act as dorky once they are fully mature. My dove is very suspicious of the camera so it is hard to get pics of her doing anything weird, but she always keeps her legs tucked even when she rolls over on her side.

[Griffin]

Aug 23, 2011 2:27:57 GMT Seijun said:

If a Lufengosaur was physically capable of laying half on its side, then I see no reason why it shouldn't be ok to depict one like that. However, if there are numerous imprints (i.e. not just one) of a particular dinosaur always in the same resting pose, then it might be error to depict an entire herd of those same dinosaur all resting in a different pose.

How do we know it was physically capable of that?

[Seijun]

I don't suppose we do know, but so far as I am aware, we also do not know that it couldn't (unless there is some study that I am unaware of which has shown lufengos spines to be incapable of twisting).

Our depictions of dinosaurs would be sorely limited if we could only depict them in positions that we had direct fossil evidence of! And considering that every large land animal alive today (except tortoises) can assume that position, I really don't see why lufengos would be an exception. If they were, how would they get beck up if they ever fell on their sides? Would they just lay there pawing the air until they starved to death or were eaten by predators?

[Griffin]

I'm sure if they fell they could get up. The question is why would they want to lay like that on their own. Like said before birds do it sometimes but really do they do it on a regular basis? They'd much rather sit straight down. So why not just depict the dinosaur doing what we know it was def doing as oppose to some really off chance pose that frankly, isnt at all more interesting anyway?

[Himmapaan]

I must say though, I like the thought of some of the quadrupedal dinosaurs being able to do that (not something like ankylosaurs, of course). I think the pose does look interesting for them.

[Seijun]

We can't say for sure that it was a "really off-chance pose". We are talking about animals that have been extinct for hundreds of thousands of years!

I agree that the before mentioned pose was most likely not the norm, but if it was actually physically possible (which again, I think it probably was), then why would it NOT be ok to depict it in paleoart? If we were making something for purely educational use then it would be best to stick with what was most likely normal, but this is art. It is really up to personal preference whether you want to stick with what you KNOW to be true, or whether you prefer to depict animals is unique and imaginative ways. Neither choice is right or wrong IMO. I say again that paleoart would be very, very boring if artists were limited only to what was absolutely proven.

[stoneage]

Aug 26, 2011 19:38:19 GMT Himmapaan said:

I must say though, I like the thought of some of the quadrupedal dinosaurs being able to do that (not something like ankylosaurs, of course). I think the pose does look interesting for them.

Like Argentinosaurus! I hope he can get back up!

[Griffin]

"We can't say for sure that it was a "really off-chance pose". We are talking about animals that have been extinct for hundreds of thousands of years"

Using modern birds and reptiles as an example we know what the norm is for them. Thats the first step to understanding dinosaurs.

"but if it was actually physically possible (which again, I think it probably was)"

Someone would need to do a study to figure out if the bones physically could bend that way. Thats how we could find out.


"If we were making something for purely educational use then it would be best to stick with what was most likely normal, but this is art."

I think a lot of professional paleoart is for educational use.

" I say again that paleoart would be very, very boring if artists were limited only to what was absolutely proven."

I STRONGLY disagree with this statement. There is a lot that we do know about dinosaurs and that alone is enough to paint a picture (no pun intended) that is very interesting and exciting. Most credible paleoart follows strictly what we do know and fills in the leftover gaps with educated guesswork and they aren't boring at all in my opinion.

Here's my point. You can either have a prosauropod sitting straight down like we have actual tracks of or you can have it with its legs to the side. Will it be that much of a better scene if the legs are to the side? So why not just pick the pose that we know they were at assuming at least some of the time instead of the one with no evidence to back it up?

[Himmapaan]

I imagine that in a painting of a group or a herd, say, several might be depicted sitting straight down, whilst one or two might adopt a different resting position. In that regard, I think the painting as a whole could potentially look much more interesting. It just shows animals in varied gestures and postures, as opposed to 'carbon copies' of the same thing turned in different directions. But that's just the appeal as I see it if side-resting was possible of course; I'm not trying to insist upon it.

Aug 26, 2011 23:06:33 GMT stoneage said:

Aug 26, 2011 19:38:19 GMT Himmapaan said:

I must say though, I like the thought of some of the quadrupedal dinosaurs being able to do that (not something like ankylosaurs, of course). I think the pose does look interesting for them.

Like Argentinosaurus! I hope he can get back up!

Sarcasm always makes for an attractive character, does it not?

I did say 'some' -- and of course such a speculation would be applied with sense. Argentinosaurus deliberately lying on its side would make little sense. But I would hope it would be able to get up were it to accidentally fall.

Poor Malcolm. I'm sorry we've strayed from your thread, though I hope it is not too entirely inappropriate considering the subject.

[dinonikes]

no worries Himmapaan, I like these sorts of dicussions, I learn from others in these sorts of exchanges. If you read through the old original thread I started back in 08 you will see that the sculpts I would propose would generate some very lively and interesting discussions about animals and animal behaviour.

In fact this discussion is relavant to one of the poses I had proposed for a reclining allosaurus that is lying on its side scratching its head with one of its hind feet. I had based it on a drawing done by Paul in his Predatory Dinosaurs of the World book. That sparked quite a discussion on whether the pose was possible or not, etc. I just thoughti t looked cool and still want to do a sculpt of that-the one I started was lost in a move, so I would have to start from scratch if I want to do that one.

[Seijun]

"If we were making something for purely educational use then it would be best to stick with what was most likely normal, but this is art."
I think a lot of professional paleoart is for educational use.

I did say "purely" educational use. For instance, museum displays--something that is meant to educate the average joe or child. However, I think something like a resin kit, or what malcom is doing, also falls into the category of art for entertainment.

"but if it was actually physically possible (which again, I think it probably was)"
Someone would need to do a study to figure out if the bones physically could bend that way. Thats how we could find out.

You are correct. And until then, I will assume that these creatures had a flexible backbone, like most modern vertebrates.

" I say again that paleoart would be very, very boring if artists were limited only to what was absolutely proven."

I STRONGLY disagree with this statement. There is a lot that we do know about dinosaurs and that alone is enough to paint a picture (no pun intended) that is very interesting and exciting. Most credible paleoart follows strictly what we do know and fills in the leftover gaps with educated guesswork and they aren't boring at all in my opinion.

Here's my point. You can either have a prosauropod sitting straight down like we have actual tracks of or you can have it with its legs to the side. Will it be that much of a better scene if the legs are to the side? So why not just pick the pose that we know they were at assuming at least some of the time instead of the one with no evidence to back it up?

In your example, I don't think a prosauro on its side would be better than one sitting, or worse. The one pose may not have any evidence to back it up, but as said before, it also has no evidence against it. It is amazing to me that we have fossils of dinosaurs resting in any pose. I would be curious to know how common such fossils are. I would not want to sit (or lay!) in mud either actually ;D

A good deal of the professional paleoart that I have seen is rather static IMO, except those with animals in combat. I am certain that we each have different standards for what makes art exciting though. I love scenes that depict new behaviors that have absolutely no hard evidence for or against it, such as malcom's "ceratosaurus on nest", and I love scenes that depict dinosaurs in very different (but still plausible) poses. It's true that we know a lot about dinosaurs, but there is even more that we don't know, and probably never will, if modern animals are anything to judge by.
I think a paleoartist could depict a dinosaur resting on its side and still be considered professional since that pose hasn't been dis-proven. Like Naroot said, using different poses could be a benefit when you are showing a whole herd of animals.
Modern day vertebrates, although they will tend to have a "normal" resting pose, will also have less common resting poses or even ones that are unique to a single individual or to different age groups. Resting poses can also differ based on environmental factors. An animal may rest differently in snow, rain, or cold, than if it was a sunny and warm day. I have seen this to be true in mammals, birds, and reptiles. Not all of these poses are in the animal's best interest either. Our neighbor had a bull that would sometimes sleep laying flat on its side a if it was dead. It wasn't sick, but sleeping like that for so long probably wasn't the best choice he ever made.

[Griffin]

Himmapaan: I dunno a flock of birds all seem to sit relatively the same way when I see them like with nesting grounds and stuff. (Their heads can be all over the place but their bodies tend to be pretty uniform).

Seijun: Birds don't really have flexible spines. Many dinosaurs also had ossified tendons running down the length of their spines making them stiff. And different sorts of animals lay in the mud all the time.

"I love scenes that depict new behaviors that have absolutely no hard evidence for or against it, such as malcom's "ceratosaurus on nest", and I love scenes that depict dinosaurs in very different (but still plausible) poses."

I do too! But the key here is no evidence against. In this case i think there actually is. Although I'm not sure 100% considering I haven't done the study, I would be willing to bet most dinosaurs couldn't bend that way. I follow what we know is fact first then I fill in the gaps with whatever I think is believable. And there are plenty of gaps to fill to make paleoart plenty interesting without being inaccurate.

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

Aug 27, 2011 2:45:43 GMT dinonikes said:

no worries Himmapaan, I like these sorts of dicussions, I learn from others in these sorts of exchanges. If you read through the old original thread I started back in 08 you will see that the sculpts I would propose would generate some very lively and interesting discussions about animals and animal behaviour.

In fact this discussion is relavant to one of the poses I had proposed for a reclining allosaurus that is lying on its side scratching its head with one of its hind feet. I had based it on a drawing done by Paul in his Predatory Dinosaurs of the World book. That sparked quite a discussion on whether the pose was possible or not, etc. I just thoughti t looked cool and still want to do a sculpt of that-the one I started was lost in a move, so I would have to start from scratch if I want to do that one.

I'd still like to see that one too...it would nice to put it together with your feeding Allosaurus. ;D