|
|
Post by mmfrankford on Mar 1, 2012 18:39:02 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by simon on Mar 1, 2012 19:02:34 GMT
Some welcome sanity in this "debate." Of course, this SINGLE species was the sole source of food when dead of natural causes for the slow, blind, scavenging TRex. (Sarcasm alert.)  |
|
|
|
Post by arioch on Mar 1, 2012 19:08:01 GMT
While I´m on the fence on this one, the "refuting" paper seems to be missing some basic stuff (we actually do have specimens that fit as transitional forms, like Nedoceratops... and so on.) Most of the arguments seem rather subjective. Dr. Holtz opinion: dml.cmnh.org/2012Feb/msg00255.html |
|
|
|
Post by Griffin on Mar 1, 2012 20:28:28 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by paleoferroequine on Mar 1, 2012 20:48:47 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by stoneage on Mar 1, 2012 22:33:34 GMT
 Deeper then what? This is the same as the original link and really doesn't tell you that much. Paleoferroequines link is the best one I've seen so far and it sounds pretty reasonable to me.
|
|
|
|
Post by kuni on Mar 2, 2012 18:52:50 GMT
I buy the results here, particularly if a similar approach works in other ceratopsians.
I suspect what we're seeing here is actually male-female differentiation, though. However, proving that will be difficult, to say the least...
|
|
|
|
Post by dinofan45 on Mar 3, 2012 3:23:42 GMT
If anyone wants to know, which they probably don't, there is one major thing that stands out to me. We have found a lot more triceratops fossils than Torosaurus fossils. If horner's theory is correct, that means that a lot of immature specimens die more than fully grown adults. And I'm guessing, if someone looked, they probably lived in different habitats. But thats just me.
|
|
|
|
Post by Meso-Cenozoic on Mar 3, 2012 11:00:23 GMT
What I never got about this argument is if they're suppose to be the juvenile and adult version of the same animal, how come both have been found to grow up to about 30 feet in length? -- Making them both adult sizes! It would make more sense if we only found smaller Trikes and only larger Toros, right?!  |
|
|
|
Post by arioch on Mar 3, 2012 11:09:08 GMT
What I never got about this argument is if they're suppose to be the juvenile and adult version of the same animal, how come both have been found to grow up to about 30 feet in length? -- Making them both adult sizes! It would make more sense if we only found smaller Trikes and only larger Toros, right?! Quoting dr. Holtz: "Furthermore, this idea that maximum body length of individuals is somehow taxonomically significant really has to go. We know that many taxa have variable maximum body size of individuals, so having some subadults bigger than adult individuals isn't rare." |
|
|
|
Post by dinoguy2 on Mar 3, 2012 16:59:27 GMT
What I never got about this argument is if they're suppose to be the juvenile and adult version of the same animal, how come both have been found to grow up to about 30 feet in length? -- Making them both adult sizes! It would make more sense if we only found smaller Trikes and only larger Toros, right?! Quoting dr. Holtz: "Furthermore, this idea that maximum body length of individuals is somehow taxonomically significant really has to go. We know that many taxa have variable maximum body size of individuals, so having some subadults bigger than adult individuals isn't rare." Also, many animals including humans reach maximum size as subadults. |
|
|
|
Post by sbell on Mar 3, 2012 19:04:03 GMT
Quoting dr. Holtz: "Furthermore, this idea that maximum body length of individuals is somehow taxonomically significant really has to go. We know that many taxa have variable maximum body size of individuals, so having some subadults bigger than adult individuals isn't rare." Also, many animals including humans reach maximum size as subadults. But not maximum weights! ;D |
|
|
|
Post by stoneage on Mar 4, 2012 0:46:52 GMT
 This says it for me, adult, and juvenile! |
|
|
|
Post by Himmapaan on Mar 4, 2012 0:56:22 GMT
Just as these say for me: unicorns' horns.  ;D Ah, that was wicked of me. Mea culpa!  ;D |
|
|
|
Post by dyscrasia on Mar 4, 2012 2:17:59 GMT
I want one of those!  |
|
|
|
Post by Griffin on Mar 4, 2012 17:00:29 GMT
Stoneage: My bad I posted the wrong thing. Just read the scientific paper its best. Oh and if anyone is interested I managed to catch Dr. Holtz and ask him about what he said regarding the issue this past Thursday. ME: I read your recent input on the triceratops is/isn't torosaurus thing and you mentioned AMNH 5116. Isn't that specimen mostly a mix of different individuals with a totally reconstructed frill though? DH: Actually, the face itself has a lot of Toro-features, as discussed in: whenpigsfly-returns.blogspot.com/2010/08/torosaurus-latus-is-not-sp.htmlME: so couldn't it just be an adult torosaurus since the actual frill was never found? DH: Good point. I think some of the frill was found, but I don't know how much. Take from it what you want. I'm not sold that they are the same animal though. |
|
|
|
Post by brachiosaurus on Mar 4, 2012 17:31:32 GMT
Just as these say for me: unicorns' horns. ;D Ah, that was wicked of me. Mea culpa! ;D Who would do such a thing, Twilight Sparkle and Rarity will not be pleased ;D |
|
|
|
Post by dinoguy2 on Mar 4, 2012 19:26:27 GMT
Stoneage: My bad I posted the wrong thing. Just read the scientific paper its best. Oh and if anyone is interested I managed to catch Dr. Holtz and ask him about what he said regarding the issue this past Thursday. ME: I read your recent input on the triceratops is/isn't torosaurus thing and you mentioned AMNH 5116. Isn't that specimen mostly a mix of different individuals with a totally reconstructed frill though? DH: Actually, the face itself has a lot of Toro-features, as discussed in: whenpigsfly-returns.blogspot.com/2010/08/torosaurus-latus-is-not-sp.htmlME: so couldn't it just be an adult torosaurus since the actual frill was never found? DH: Good point. I think some of the frill was found, but I don't know how much. Take from it what you want. I'm not sold that they are the same animal though. The AMNH mount is made up of several individuals but the skull/frill is mostly complete, just patched up in places. You can see the original here:  dinogoss.blogspot.com/2009/10/toro-toro-toro.htmlNote that some of the frill is filled in "grey areas) but is mostly complete. Unfortunately most of the missing pieces are from the areas where holes would be expected. |
|
|
|
Post by Griffin on Mar 5, 2012 0:22:04 GMT
Yeah I was gonna say looking at that photo where it shows what apparently has been pieced back together...the reconstructed stuff is the only thing making it bear any resemblance to a triceratops.
|
|
|
|
Post by suspsy on Mar 5, 2012 17:50:14 GMT
Another one of Jack Horner's crackpot theories gets torpedoed. Seems to be an ongoing trend!
|
|
;D 
