Post by crazycrowman on Dec 18, 2008 2:12:17 GMT
"Well the question is what is instinct and what is intelligence."
The question in this case is not what is instinct and what is intelligence. That question has been answer there. Crows are instinctual. Yes. Man is instinctual. Yes, but both have an instinctual ability do use our unique intelligence to modify the world around us and use it to our biological advantage in very similar ways.
Crows can out-think almost all other animals. That is their "special skill" In every other way they are a generalist. Man is pretty much the same. We are bipedal apes with thin skins and dull teeth who need to keep warm, and such. We are pretty fragile. But we have brains that have allowed us to rise to the top of the food chain. Crows have done very similar things with their brains.
"Birds build nest to lay their eggs. They never saw their parents do this, and yet I'll bet most robin nest look pretty much the same."
"Why do they come up with the same general construction?"
"Turtles return to where they were born to lay their eggs."
"Spiders weave complex webs. Is that intelligence."
All of these are fine examples of instinctual behavior passed on genetically.
"I'd bet given the same test the cat would get the food by using it's paw, Licking, Turning the glass over, or Breaking the glass. If it couldn't do that because it has no way to use a tool other then it's mouth which isn't designed for that is he less smart."
Yes the cat is simply less able to compete in this case, and no it does not have the same brainpower as the crow. It is, in the sense that man and crows are smart, "less smart". YES.
If in the same situation as the crow, it could not figure out a way to use its environment to aid it in acquiring the food. If all it could feed from is that food, or food in a similar situation, it would starve and die. The crow would not. The container was glued down, BTW and the only way to get to the food was with a tool. It was not a natural situation. It was a test in a lab. The cat would not be able to get at the food in any way besides coming up with a tool, and cats do not have the brainpower to do this. If the container could be moved, like the cat, the crow would tip it if it could first, or even fly up with it and drop it to the ground to break it like they do clams, and turtles. Other crows in lab setting have even made "cups" to transport water to a container to "float" food up to them, but this lab wanted to see if a crow could use the tool (*that they make instinctively*, like chimps and man make tools instinctively), or how 2 birds would interact with that tool. INSTEAD the bird threw everyone a curve ball and modified another tool, something NEVER seen before in a lab setting like that. Then when she was successful, she did it again. And again...and again. The male living with her, though slower then her saw her, and learned by her example to do the same.
Crows bodies aren't exactly designed to make tools either. They are generalists. They have no special tool making skills. What they do have is the mental flex ability to learn unlike so far any other animals then man and the other great apes. In this case, of the crow and the tool, no other animals has show to be able to do this quite like the crows there did besides man.
Thats what makes this type of thing special. The crows body was not able to solve the problem. It had to use its mind, it had to step in and it had to craft a NEW tool. It did just that, and it adapted that specific tool to that specific situation - just like man.
If you are going to keep on about this, and are REALLY seriously interested in the topic of animal cognition, I suggest reading some of the books below. They should help you understand where corvids mental processes differ from that of many (most) other animals, and how animal cognition is studied in general.
Corvid Cognition -
The American Crow and the Common Raven (The W.L. Moody Jr Natural History Series, No 10) by Lawrence Kilham
In the Company of Crows and Ravens by John M. Marzluff, Tony Angell, and Paul R. Ehrlich
Crows: Encounters with the Wise Guys of the Avian World (Greystone Nature) by Candace Savage
Bird Brains: The Intelligence of Crows, Ravens, Magpies, and Jays by Candace Savage
Ravens in Winter by Bernd Heinrich
Mind of the Raven: Investigations and Adventures with Wolf-Birds by Bernd Heinrich
Corvid response to human settlements and campgrounds: Causes, consequences, and challenges for conservation [An article from: Biological Conservation] by J.M. Marzluff and E. Neatherlin
Parrots -
Alex & Me: How a Scientist and a Parrot Uncovered a Hidden World of Animal Intelligence--and Formed a Deep Bond in the Process by Irene M. Pepperberg
Animal Cognition - (with emphasis on our closest relatives)
Primates and Philosophers: How Morality Evolved (Princeton Science Library) by Frans de Waal, Stephen Macedo, and Josiah Ober
Chimpanzee Politics: power and Sex Among Apes by Frans de Wall
Our Inner Ape: A Leading Primatologist Explains Why We Are Who We Are by Frans De Waal
Comparative Cognition: Experimental Explorations of Animal Intelligence by Edward A. Wasserman and Thomas R. Zentall
Animal Cognition: An Introduction to Modern Comparative Psychology by Jacques Vauclair
I have read and actually own all of these books and even reading through a few of them will help you get an idea of what exactly differs in how these animals (and we) think.
The question in this case is not what is instinct and what is intelligence. That question has been answer there. Crows are instinctual. Yes. Man is instinctual. Yes, but both have an instinctual ability do use our unique intelligence to modify the world around us and use it to our biological advantage in very similar ways.
Crows can out-think almost all other animals. That is their "special skill" In every other way they are a generalist. Man is pretty much the same. We are bipedal apes with thin skins and dull teeth who need to keep warm, and such. We are pretty fragile. But we have brains that have allowed us to rise to the top of the food chain. Crows have done very similar things with their brains.
"Birds build nest to lay their eggs. They never saw their parents do this, and yet I'll bet most robin nest look pretty much the same."
"Why do they come up with the same general construction?"
"Turtles return to where they were born to lay their eggs."
"Spiders weave complex webs. Is that intelligence."
All of these are fine examples of instinctual behavior passed on genetically.
"I'd bet given the same test the cat would get the food by using it's paw, Licking, Turning the glass over, or Breaking the glass. If it couldn't do that because it has no way to use a tool other then it's mouth which isn't designed for that is he less smart."
Yes the cat is simply less able to compete in this case, and no it does not have the same brainpower as the crow. It is, in the sense that man and crows are smart, "less smart". YES.
If in the same situation as the crow, it could not figure out a way to use its environment to aid it in acquiring the food. If all it could feed from is that food, or food in a similar situation, it would starve and die. The crow would not. The container was glued down, BTW and the only way to get to the food was with a tool. It was not a natural situation. It was a test in a lab. The cat would not be able to get at the food in any way besides coming up with a tool, and cats do not have the brainpower to do this. If the container could be moved, like the cat, the crow would tip it if it could first, or even fly up with it and drop it to the ground to break it like they do clams, and turtles. Other crows in lab setting have even made "cups" to transport water to a container to "float" food up to them, but this lab wanted to see if a crow could use the tool (*that they make instinctively*, like chimps and man make tools instinctively), or how 2 birds would interact with that tool. INSTEAD the bird threw everyone a curve ball and modified another tool, something NEVER seen before in a lab setting like that. Then when she was successful, she did it again. And again...and again. The male living with her, though slower then her saw her, and learned by her example to do the same.
Crows bodies aren't exactly designed to make tools either. They are generalists. They have no special tool making skills. What they do have is the mental flex ability to learn unlike so far any other animals then man and the other great apes. In this case, of the crow and the tool, no other animals has show to be able to do this quite like the crows there did besides man.
Thats what makes this type of thing special. The crows body was not able to solve the problem. It had to use its mind, it had to step in and it had to craft a NEW tool. It did just that, and it adapted that specific tool to that specific situation - just like man.
If you are going to keep on about this, and are REALLY seriously interested in the topic of animal cognition, I suggest reading some of the books below. They should help you understand where corvids mental processes differ from that of many (most) other animals, and how animal cognition is studied in general.
Corvid Cognition -
The American Crow and the Common Raven (The W.L. Moody Jr Natural History Series, No 10) by Lawrence Kilham
In the Company of Crows and Ravens by John M. Marzluff, Tony Angell, and Paul R. Ehrlich
Crows: Encounters with the Wise Guys of the Avian World (Greystone Nature) by Candace Savage
Bird Brains: The Intelligence of Crows, Ravens, Magpies, and Jays by Candace Savage
Ravens in Winter by Bernd Heinrich
Mind of the Raven: Investigations and Adventures with Wolf-Birds by Bernd Heinrich
Corvid response to human settlements and campgrounds: Causes, consequences, and challenges for conservation [An article from: Biological Conservation] by J.M. Marzluff and E. Neatherlin
Parrots -
Alex & Me: How a Scientist and a Parrot Uncovered a Hidden World of Animal Intelligence--and Formed a Deep Bond in the Process by Irene M. Pepperberg
Animal Cognition - (with emphasis on our closest relatives)
Primates and Philosophers: How Morality Evolved (Princeton Science Library) by Frans de Waal, Stephen Macedo, and Josiah Ober
Chimpanzee Politics: power and Sex Among Apes by Frans de Wall
Our Inner Ape: A Leading Primatologist Explains Why We Are Who We Are by Frans De Waal
Comparative Cognition: Experimental Explorations of Animal Intelligence by Edward A. Wasserman and Thomas R. Zentall
Animal Cognition: An Introduction to Modern Comparative Psychology by Jacques Vauclair
I have read and actually own all of these books and even reading through a few of them will help you get an idea of what exactly differs in how these animals (and we) think.