Hatzegopteryx-the biggest ever Pterosaur

[ningishzida]

There was a recent thread about a new pterosaur from South America, that incorrectly suggested it was the 'largest' Pterosaur. Reading the article revealed however that it was no where near as large as Quetzalcoatlus.

But there is a massive new Pterosaur bigger than Q. that was found in Romania. In fact it has the largest skull of ANY land vertebrate known (about 10 feet long), and the paleontologist Mark Witton believes it could easily swallow human-sized prey whole.

Here is a link to Mark Witton's website, with his superb artwork.

www.flickr.com/photos/markwitton/2465048793/

Mark also has reexamined these creatures and believes these super pterosaurs were not fish hunting skimmers, but probably hunted small dinosaurs and other animals as the similar structured herons and storks do hujnting frogs and mice.

I could even imagine this monster with its huge spear-like beak, even holding a T-Rex mother at bay, while gulping down its babies like they were popcorn.

This fantastic animal would be an excellent candidate for a new model. It is interesting how one of the the biggest arguments against 'dragons', despite their universal belief by early man, is the claim by scientists that "nothing that big could ever fly". But the scientists are wrong. Here we have an enormous 'dragon' that could not only fly but could swallow people whole. The scientific name for this group of super pterosaurs now, is in fact, the Romanian word for 'dragon'.

[tetonbabydoll]

That's not really news here. I think I've seen a thread or two about it. I have serious doubts that a pterasaur, even one that big, could hold off a mama Rex while snacking on its babies "like popcorn" My understanding is that despite their size, they are actually quite delicate, and awkward on the ground....

I think an angry Rex ripping that thing to shreds like a toy kite sounds more likely......

See Tyrannus, I got your back.......

[ningishzida]

Large cranes, storks and herons are pretty good at inimidating larger predators. And a ten foot long, sharp beak would be quite a weapon. And that 40- 50 foot wingpan would certainly look intimidating to a creature with the brain the size of a bannana. The whole reason these pteros were so big may have been so they could hold their own in a world ruled by large theropods.

I didn't see a thread about this animal, and the last Pterosaur thread was not related to this creature, though the same paleontologist was involved (Mark Witton).

[[][][]cordylus[][][]]

Storks, Cranes, Etc. Also aren't huge flying reptiles. I think if one of those came up to a trex, all the rex would need to do is tear the delicate wing membranes, and then the pterosaur is done with. NOt being able to fly or glide properly, it wouldn't be able to feed, then....

As with the brain size thing, elephants have brains 8 times larger than humans', but elephants still aren't as smart.

[ningishzida]

Dec 15, 2008 21:39:41 GMT [][][]cordylus[][][] said:

Storks, Cranes, Etc. Also aren't huge flying reptiles. I think if one of those came up to a trex, all the rex would need to do is tear the delicate wing membranes, and then the pterosaur is done with. NOt being able to fly or glide properly, it wouldn't be able to feed, then....

As with the brain size thing, elephants have brains 8 times larger than humans', but elephants still aren't as smart.

But if the Ptero spread its 50 foot wingspan it could easily intimidate a small brained creature. The point is that Q. fossils are found in flat areas where they would be very vulnerable to theropod attack unless they had some kind of effective defense strategy.

[[][][]cordylus[][][]]

^ Or they avoided theropods altogether. They could have just eaten large fish, and the cretaceous had plenty of those. ;D

[ningishzida]

Dec 15, 2008 21:57:45 GMT [][][]cordylus[][][] said:

^ Or they avoided theropods altogether. They could have just eaten large fish, and the cretaceous had plenty of those. ;D

That was the popular 'old' idea, but the problem is that 'Q' remains are not associated with large bodies of water. As Witton's paper convincingly shows, they were probably savannah hunters of smaller animals much like storks today. They probably scavenged dead dinos too, just as the maribour storks do in Africa.

[Tyrannax]

Not to bash Pterosaurs n such, but they were much less intelligent then Tyrannosaurus. T-Rex was the smartest large theropod that ever lived, and figuring out that a defenseless Pterosaur can't hurt him wouldn't have been too hard to figure out in my opinion. You really think a Pterosaur would even risk its life even trying to run off a mother Tyrannosaurus? Tyrannosaurus didn't have any natural enemies as adults, and therefore didn't really know fear well. I can only see a Tyrannosaurus having its mind set on food, and doing whatever it took to reach it...even if it meant knocking over a helpless Pterosaur.

lol, thanks teton and ct.

Oh, and there is no way on earth any animal (Any) could hold off an angry mother Tyrannosaurus. If something bothered its young, it would rip it to shreds. Besides, Pterosaurs aren't dumb enough to sit around while a big T is charging at them.

[bolesey]

Dec 15, 2008 22:47:25 GMT Tyrannax said:

T-Rex was the smartest large theropod that ever lived

I always heard Troodon. Intelligence generally goes on proportion, not size.

[[][][]cordylus[][][]]

Dec 15, 2008 22:47:25 GMT Tyrannax said:

Oh, and there is no way on earth any animal (Any) could hold off [CT's mom/i] when she's angry.

I fixed that. ;D


The big pterosaur is pretty interesting though.

[stoneage]

;D In order for these big birds to fly they had to be light weight. At best these birds might have weighed 250 lbs. A T-Rex would have weighed over 3 tons at least. Do you know of a bird that normally attacks big cats to steal it's prey? ;D

[crazycrowman]

Fascinating...Super sized Pterosaurs.

"Oh, and there is no way on earth any animal (Any) could hold off an angry mother Tyrannosaurus."

Well, being that we don't know how and if T rex was even protective of her brood, that is a really hard call to try to make. I would say if she is anything like crocodilians or many mother birds, she would have been an imposing protector indeed. Then, theres always the chance that they didn't brood the eggs at all (some crocodilians don't protect their nests) or even the chance that the male did the brooding like some rattites do today.

I had also always heard Troodon being called the "smartest" of the dinosaurs. That wouldn't surprise me. The "smarter" animals today tend not to be the ones who have a biology that does the work for them. I'll bring corvids up, well...because I can. Crows and Ravens do not have the same equipment and speed as falcons or eagles, but often utilize similar resources. Their social behavior and large brains allow them to do this the same as the other birds use their bodies.

"It is interesting how one of the the biggest arguments against 'dragons', despite their universal belief by early man, is the claim by scientists that "nothing that big could ever fly"."

I think that the "biggest arguments against dragons'" is that there is no valid evidence for them at all in the sense of the sort slain by St George. No more then there is for big foot, moth men and nessie and those other enigmatic "cryptids" that are just too smart or to sneaky or something for people to find! (And if you/anyone want to know how some science minded folks feel about big foot - Me specifically, you can feel free to refer back to the cryptozoology thread of yore...)

I have always felt that dragon mythology was simply a way for humans to composite actual events/predators/fears relating to them and deal with them before they actually had a way of fully understanding and explaining them. (sort of how I feel about religion) Its easy for people to blame earthquakes and volcanoes on things like dragons when you have no idea what an earthquake is.

When early people found dinosaur bones, experienced unusual natural phenomena, heard strange noises in the night, encountered and were exposed to new and different predators that they had never seen before as they traveled the world and the like, its easy to come up with a dragon to fit that space.


I am sure this is the same reason blobs on photos become UFOs or Sasquatch, and Oryx can easily become Unicorns and even the largest of Serpents always seem 10' longer then they really were until the tape measure comes out. Most mythical "dragons" are composite animals as well, a combination of traits from animals like big cats, predatory birds and large predatory reptiles.

I personally don't think there is anything more to "dragon legends" then this. Sure there may be more mythology after the fact, and all kinds of stories and the like that stem from a similar human condition - us not being a top predator during our evolutionary stages, and landing on the menu of all of those composite animals. Granted, I think that the principles behind dragon mythology is alive and well. (unfortunately) A good example is to look at how we as a culture behave towards modern reptiles and the people who associate with them. They are immediately considered exotic, and "dangerous" and always a potential threat to the neighborhood! Newspapers run headlines when a sick 3' abandoned monitor lizard that could hardly swallow a large rat is found about how it could potentially consume children, and hunt peoples pets" and the like...many animal control folks still go loopy when presented with "dangerous reptiles", (and by that I mean Iguanas, Boas, Boscs Monitors, Dwarf Caimans) while, some species are indeed potentially hazardous to health, like venomous snakes and lizards, of the standard "shelter species" none would be more potentially dangerous then a large aggressive dog, which they often handle calmly, firmly, and with compassion that reptiles often do not see from such people.

There are plenty of "real" dragons that aren't lurking hidden in mysterious places eluding us with cloaking devices *insert magical hazy fog* - There are, remarkably, still "giant" reptiles we share the planet with, such as Crocodilians and Sea Turtles, and some exceptional varanids too. Those along with the other animals that helped us conjure up the images of "dragons", tigers, monkey eating eagles and the like should be appreciated, protected and respected. I find it sad people spend so much time searching after cryptids and such things while these species continue to suffer poaching, and most damaging of all, habitat destruction and deforestation, and many of them are facing extinction. Pretty soon, the majestic Monkey Eating Eagle and fantastic and arboreal Salvadori's monitor may well join the ranks of the Haast's Eagle and Megalania as nothing more then bones and memories. That to me is unbelievably sad.

As a note to those who may think I am a "Mythical Dragon Hater" - I am not. I like dragons and think they are very cool, albeit, flights of human fancy. I collect some dragon figures, because I think they are neat. I liked the Mcfarline Dragons series - some very cool ones in that line.

[stoneage]

Your feelings about Dragons and religion are interesting but what does it have to do with Hatzegopteryx?

[crazycrowman]

"Your feelings about Dragons and religion are interesting but what does it have to do with Hatzegopteryx?"

I was replying to the comment by ningishzida. I guess it is now considered derailment ? Maybe it needs moved ?

[stoneage]

Dec 16, 2008 0:05:48 GMT crazycrowman said:

"Your feelings about Dragons and religion are interesting but what does it have to do with Hatzegopteryx?"

I was replying to the comment by ningishzida. I guess it is now considered derailment ? Maybe it needs moved ?

I think he did make a comment about Dragons on another thread!

[ningishzida]

Dec 15, 2008 23:10:54 GMT stoneage said:

;D In order for these big birds to fly they had to be light weight. At best these birds might have weighed 250 lbs. A T-Rex would have weighed over 3 tons at least. Do you know of a bird that normally attacks big cats to steal it's prey? ;D

Look at the reconstruction of H. by a real Paleontologist. Do you really believe THAT could weigh only 250 lbs? It has the largest skull of any land vertebrate as well.

No, sometimes the scientists are wrong. Bigger animals can fly than they ever dreamed of.

Witton points out as well that the body of Q. is depicted far too small, for the size of its wingspan.

If you watch animal documentaries of the african savannah you will see Marabou storks hovering right around the lions, snatching bits of prey when they can. The lions never seem to bother them........ maybe because they don't want a spear like beak through their eye.

Australian frilled lizards can 'cow' theoretically more 'intelligent' dingos with their frill trick. Just think how impressive a 50 foot wingspan pterosaur could look with its wings extended. That might scare a T-Rex, espeically if the same creature gobbled up its siblings when it was small.

[[][][]cordylus[][][]]

Maybe the head was 250 pounds- But otherwise, it might have been too heavy (NOT too big) to get off the ground.

[Tyrannax]

If I go outside and saw a large crow with its wings extended at my cat, my cat would not back off. It would still attack the thing, even though its wing span is the length of the entire cat. The cat is a great deal smarter then the crow, just as A Tyrannosaurus is a great deal smarter then the Pterosaur. Eagles also attack much larger prey, and considering Tyrannosaurus was about as smart as an eagle, not much could change its mind if it were set.

I said large theropod, not of any theropod. Troodon was the smartest, but it wasn't large.

To be honest, I think its almost impossible to scare a Tyrannosaurus by using mere size trickery. That is, if the Pterosaur is bird brained enough to even try that sort of trick.

[tetonbabydoll]

Yes, he did, and is writing a book about it.

However. I did say an angry rex. I suspect that even a mildly disinterested rex could take this thing. I am willing to bet that rexes did not intimidate well.

I'll explain.

My lil chihuahua, Troy, weighs all of four pounds, four ounces. He, technically, has no balls. But, his ego, and sense of superiority is fully intact, if not wildly inflated.
He has recently started encountering many larger dogs at our dog park. The larger the dog, the more he barks and stands his ground. He took on a great dane y"all. That dogs head was even with my shoulders, and it was heavy.
And my dumbass would NOT back down. Imagine if he was a protective mama. Or just pissed off?

Rexes may have just assumed their place was secure, and not tolerated the idea of running away.And rex had a seriously large bite force. If it grabbed that beak in its jaws and crunched down? That beak would just collapse. And ig the rex then twisted, it could probably ( certainly ) snap that scrawny neck. Rex is massive. A head butt, or body slam would crush the ribcage, or snap limbs. A bite on a body would snap the spine. Any biting or clawing at the wings would destroy them. Even a shallow bite to the body will cause catastrophic blood loss. A glancing blow could well knock the thing over, and once down, it would be over.

I think, if these things ate baby rexes, it would have to be a quick snatch and grab, while the mother was away. Always assuming, of course, that tyrannosaurs did not live in a family group of some kind....

I do not think one of these flying giants would risk a face to face smack down with a large therapod. They well have had defenses against becoming food. But, hadrosaurs lived in therapod territory too, and most seem essentially defenseless. Only the herd to protect them. A flock of these things might scare off a rex, but would it bother for such small pickings as babies. Is it possible they basically scavenged leftover kills as thier main diet?

[tetonbabydoll]

Lions may not bother birds snatching scraps of food from a kill, but that is not the same thing as snatching the cubs themselves. That, I suspect, the lionesses would not tolerate.

Now, the male lions? Meh. Well make more.......