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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Dec 31, 2008 0:50:05 GMT
^ He makes up things. ;D (is kidding!) But seriously, where did you find that "fact", Tryannax?
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Post by itstwentybelow on Dec 31, 2008 2:26:44 GMT
No I agree with you Cordylus. I think it's safe to say that Tyrannax is either very poorly informed or that he makes up most of his "facts". How could anyone possibly know how effective a spear would be against a T.rex's hide? And how would you know how effective a spear was against a mammoth vs against an elephant? I'm sorry but as an Anthropology major, this thread is just too ridiculous for me.
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Post by Tyrannax on Dec 31, 2008 21:27:56 GMT
I said its a theory and as for the source, its a DK (Nat Geo as well, according to the logo at the bottom ) Dinosaur Encyclopedia. Quote: "Due to recent studies, it is believed that Tyrannosaurus may have been as smart a a common house cat" I don't make things up itstwentybelow. It was under a picture of its skull. You know, those little captions. ;D
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Dec 31, 2008 21:48:28 GMT
^ I don't think he was "making up things", but rather going by his experiences.
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Post by stoneage on Jan 1, 2009 0:04:33 GMT
I might have known National Geographic. What a great source!
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Post by itstwentybelow on Jan 1, 2009 0:24:18 GMT
So then we're assuming that Tyrannax must have some experience hunting mammoths and T.rexes? Come on guys.
Tyrannax, it's just that you always make these "theories" of yours sound like well-known facts when most of them are either incorrect or don't make much sense. Like that one thread where we were debating T.rex intelligence and you said that a housecat could outsmart a crow, when if you really knew much about birds you'd know that crows are among the most intelligent and exhibit incredible problem-solving skills and tool use. They are far more intelligent than cats. I'm not trying to be a jerk, just PLEASE think before you type!
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Post by Tyrannax on Jan 1, 2009 2:34:44 GMT
I admit I wasn't saying it was a fact, but I would have bet my life cats were smarter then crows. I look at my cat and he seems to have personality appears to be thinking...I see crows and see fast moving, emotionless animals...due to the fact that I have only dealt with them when I'm scaring them off of my lawn. ;D But when I read something from a source, I do defend it. Notice I didn't defend that crow statement at all because I had no proof, I just was so sure with myself crows weren't as smart. I like birds, but have never had much experience with them. I've only taken care of two baby mocking birds... Actually I'm not big on being perfect on this forum. I talk to you guys just like my friends...throwing out opinions and arguments and defying popular beliefs. ;D I don't want to edit my posts for grammar mistakes or anything. Thats how comfortable I am here. ;D But in any case, Tyrannosaurus had the largest brain of any dinosaur. It wasn't the best as far as the "Body size to brain capacity" ratio goes, but it was a bright theropod none the less. I don't find it hard to believe they were as smart as cats, as that caption says. Oh by the way, due to the Carnotaurus skin findings we know that at least some theropods had very thick skin. Plus being a reptile, scales are natural armor. It would be hard to pierce its skin. Just my two cents.
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Jan 1, 2009 2:44:23 GMT
^ Well, elephants have brains 8 times larger than humans'... But who is smarter? And I still think carnotaurus skin wouldn't be hard to pierce. Just because it had some little bony scutes here and there, doesn't mean you couldn't pierce the belly, under the neck, etc.
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Post by Tyrannax on Jan 1, 2009 2:51:15 GMT
^ Exactly, but elephants are more then 8 times larger humans! *Looks at 1200 lb guy laying bed...well most of us. ;D Elephants are extremely smart though.
Oh most definitely! I never said you couldn't pierce it, I just said it'd be moire difficult then piercing a mammals skin, which has no protection.
Are we going to make a federal case out of everything I say? *lols* ;D
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Post by ningishzida on Jan 1, 2009 20:58:18 GMT
I did forget that the 'where' is important too. And even the 'when' in the Cretaceous. On the coasts of Texas when Deinosuchus and Albertosaurus, plus several small dromaeosaurs, were wandering around? Or in South America, when the predators were so large that a little human would seem pointless? And while it's true that tyrannosaurids were master predators in their time, I think we can blame a history of movies, culminating in the JP movies, for thinking that there is something attractive about eating humans. Would a 44 ft dinosaur really be bothered with a skinny little mammal--who would pretty much smell and taste like the other familiar mammals of its time? Probably not; JP aside, the large predators are not going to bother with small, unfamiliar prey--unless it gets in the way. Hadrosaurs would still be the most likely route (actually, small mammals and reptiles would be the most likely route, but let's pretend these humans are motivated) but that would bring them into direct competition with their other predators--and we humans know how that usually turns out... As for diseases--most pathogens are host specific unless prolonged contact allows for a jump. Not saying that there wouldn't be one that could right away, but you generally would not need to worry about a dino flu. Unless you domesticate them, remove their inclination to escape, and start breeding them for increased egg and breast meat production (as an example). Actually if the Jurassic Park movies got anything right, it was the fact that humans would have been very sought for, tasty morsels to something like a Spino or Rex. Large carnivorous dinosaurs would find humans a very attractive prey animal, just as "Gustave" the Nile Croc does. In fact, the favorite prey of many pet reptiles are small, helpless "pinkie" rodents, even though they are not very filling. I cannot think of a more 'edible' creature than a human to a large reptilian carnivore. No sharp claws or horns to scratch the throat, no real teeth to bite, not too much indigestible hair. Humans would be just walking sacks of easy to catch meat to a T-Rex, and if humans existed in their times, they would be the preferred food source until they were eaten into extinction. I could imagine an adult Rex gobbling up a couple dozen humans a day until they were all gone. Why mess with a dangerous triceratops with these, bite-size 100% pure digestible, slow, easy to catch, walking meatsacks walking around? And there are loads of precedents in the natural world to prove this. Although wolves CAN take down caribou, they eat far more bite sized rodents in their lifetimes that would be equivalent to a Rex eating a human. And if rodents are plentiful, no point risking serious injury against a potentially dangerous prey animal. They take bigger risks when there is no easy to catch prey around. Eagles too. Yes they can take down large prey, but in one documentary they were gulping down a whole colony bite-sized nestling birds instead like they were popcorn. And when we come to reptiles, Komodos and crocs do not hesitate to eat small creatures that cross their paths even though they can take large prey. And as previously mentioned, they actually seem to 'relish' helpless little 'pinkies' (as a human would be to a T Rex). Yes, humans hunted mammoths, but Mammoths were herbivores. And yes, humans might fight off a cave bear or lion, but these are NOTHING compared to a T Rex or Spino. To imagine humans hunting T-rex with stone age weapons is as ridiculous as mice somehow killing a cat or hawk. A T-Rex would be like an omnipotent, unstoppable "god" to stoneage man........ and anyone who believes otherwise, and believes primitive man could kill such creatures, probably plays too much D&D and reads too many "jungle girl" type comic books. Humans simply couldn't threaten these creatures, and would have only survived by living in a maze of caverns or dense thickets were Rexes and other large theropods coudln't root them out. And humans probably would have worshipped them, and even fed them offerings of their own kind in hopes of avoiding greater predation. But I do agree that human sized 'raptors' are overrated, and humans would be able to hold their own against those, just as they could against bears, big cats and wolves. But 40 foot carnosaurs? You've got to be kidding.
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Post by Tyrannax on Jan 1, 2009 21:06:24 GMT
I do find it hard to picture humans killing an animal as large as Tyrannosaurus with spears, but maybe they would have used raps? Large holes in the earth. If Tyrannosaurus fell, it would shatter its thigh and other leg bones. I don't think it would have been impossible to kill Tyrannosaurus (Humans may have scavenged off dead dinosaurs also btw), but using spears is out of the question. Why would they bother risking their entire group hunting something so massive? I an only see primitive humans hunting small herbivorous dinosaurs.
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Post by ningishzida on Jan 1, 2009 21:07:50 GMT
I admit I wasn't saying it was a fact, but I would have bet my life cats were smarter then crows. I look at my cat and he seems to have personality appears to be thinking...I see crows and see fast moving, emotionless animals...due to the fact that I have only dealt with them when I'm scaring them off of my lawn. ;D But when I read something from a source, I do defend it. Notice I didn't defend that crow statement at all because I had no proof, I just was so sure with myself crows weren't as smart. I like birds, but have never had much experience with them. I've only taken care of two baby mocking birds... Actually I'm not big on being perfect on this forum. I talk to you guys just like my friends...throwing out opinions and arguments and defying popular beliefs. ;D I don't want to edit my posts for grammar mistakes or anything. Thats how comfortable I am here. ;D But in any case, Tyrannosaurus had the largest brain of any dinosaur. It wasn't the best as far as the "Body size to brain capacity" ratio goes, but it was a bright theropod none the less. I don't find it hard to believe they were as smart as cats, as that caption says. Oh by the way, due to the Carnotaurus skin findings we know that at least some theropods had very thick skin. Plus being a reptile, scales are natural armor. It would be hard to pierce its skin. Just my two cents. I agree. The thick hide of dinosaur mummies, and particularly Carnotaurus suggest a virtually spear and arrowproof creature save for a very lucky shot in the eye. Before the invention of powerful modern rifles, mere 15 foot crocodiles were a terror in africa. There are accounts of musket balls bouncing off the hides of alligators. Some people believe the Leviathan of the Bible is no more than a crocodile, but even so, the account states that no weapon of bronze or iron can pierce its scales. The notion of humans hunting T-Rex with anything before 20th century technology is absurd. T-Rex was probably more intelligent than crocodiles, yet one crocodile in Africa is credited with killing over 300 people, in a place where every male over the age of 12 has a high powered rifle. It is nothing but pure unadulterated human ego to imagine humans overcoming something like a T-Rex without modern technology. I'm glad real scientists worked on jurassic park. If it was made by some of the people here, we probably would have seen stupid stuff like Rexes getting their heads chopped off by paleontologists armed with machetes.
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Post by ningishzida on Jan 1, 2009 21:13:42 GMT
I do find it hard to picture humans killing an animal as large as Tyrannosaurus with spears, but maybe they would have used raps? Large holes in the earth. If Tyrannosaurus fell, it would shatter its thigh and other leg bones. I don't think it would have been impossible to kill Tyrannosaurus (Humans may have scavenged off dead dinosaurs also btw), but using spears is out of the question. Why would they bother risking their entire group hunting something so massive? I an only see primitive humans hunting small herbivorous dinosaurs. Entirely unrealistic, comic book ideas.. Do you realize how much time/energy would be expended digging a pit big enough 'trap' with the remote possibility it would trip a T-Rex? Those are man-hours needed to find food, there would be no time for such nonsense. And what happens to the people digging this comic book trap 10 minutes after the Rex picks up their scent? It would be suicidal just going out in the open to dig a trap in the first place., and any time such a think were attempted probably everybody would be caught and eaten.
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Post by sbell on Jan 1, 2009 21:21:38 GMT
I did forget that the 'where' is important too. And even the 'when' in the Cretaceous. On the coasts of Texas when Deinosuchus and Albertosaurus, plus several small dromaeosaurs, were wandering around? Or in South America, when the predators were so large that a little human would seem pointless? And while it's true that tyrannosaurids were master predators in their time, I think we can blame a history of movies, culminating in the JP movies, for thinking that there is something attractive about eating humans. Would a 44 ft dinosaur really be bothered with a skinny little mammal--who would pretty much smell and taste like the other familiar mammals of its time? Probably not; JP aside, the large predators are not going to bother with small, unfamiliar prey--unless it gets in the way. Hadrosaurs would still be the most likely route (actually, small mammals and reptiles would be the most likely route, but let's pretend these humans are motivated) but that would bring them into direct competition with their other predators--and we humans know how that usually turns out... As for diseases--most pathogens are host specific unless prolonged contact allows for a jump. Not saying that there wouldn't be one that could right away, but you generally would not need to worry about a dino flu. Unless you domesticate them, remove their inclination to escape, and start breeding them for increased egg and breast meat production (as an example). Actually if the Jurassic Park movies got anything right, it was the fact that humans would have been very sought for, tasty morsels to something like a Spino or Rex. Large carnivorous dinosaurs would find humans a very attractive prey animal, just as "Gustave" the Nile Croc does. In fact, the favorite prey of many pet reptiles are small, helpless "pinkie" rodents, even though they are not very filling. I cannot think of a more 'edible' creature than a human to a large reptilian carnivore. No sharp claws or horns to scratch the throat, no real teeth to bite, not too much indigestible hair. Humans would be just walking sacks of easy to catch meat to a T-Rex, and if humans existed in their times, they would be the preferred food source until they were eaten into extinction. I could imagine an adult Rex gobbling up a couple dozen humans a day until they were all gone. Why mess with a dangerous triceratops with these, bite-size 100% pure digestible, slow, easy to catch, walking meatsacks walking around? And there are loads of precedents in the natural world to prove this. Although wolves CAN take down caribou, they eat far more bite sized rodents in their lifetimes that would be equivalent to a Rex eating a human. And if rodents are plentiful, no point risking serious injury against a potentially dangerous prey animal. They take bigger risks when there is no easy to catch prey around. Eagles too. Yes they can take down large prey, but in one documentary they were gulping down a whole colony bite-sized nestling birds instead like they were popcorn. And when we come to reptiles, Komodos and crocs do not hesitate to eat small creatures that cross their paths even though they can take large prey. And as previously mentioned, they actually seem to 'relish' helpless little 'pinkies' (as a human would be to a T Rex). Yes, humans hunted mammoths, but Mammoths were herbivores. And yes, humans might fight off a cave bear or lion, but these are NOTHING compared to a T Rex or Spino. To imagine humans hunting T-rex with stone age weapons is as ridiculous as mice somehow killing a cat or hawk. A T-Rex would be like an omnipotent, unstoppable "god" to stoneage man........ and anyone who believes otherwise, and believes primitive man could kill such creatures, probably plays too much D&D and reads too many "jungle girl" type comic books. Humans simply couldn't threaten these creatures, and would have only survived by living in a maze of caverns or dense thickets were Rexes and other large theropods coudln't root them out. And humans probably would have worshipped them, and even fed them offerings of their own kind in hopes of avoiding greater predation. But I do agree that human sized 'raptors' are overrated, and humans would be able to hold their own against those, just as they could against bears, big cats and wolves. But 40 foot carnosaurs? You've got to be kidding. Of course we're not kidding--after all, this is a silly hypothetical 'What if?" about something that didn't happen, couldn't happen, and won't happen. Perhaps the Discovery Channel can do a special about it (not that the arguments will stop). Depending on your point of view, it may wind up in Jurassic Fight Club, or in Mythbusters.
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Post by ningishzida on Jan 1, 2009 21:28:44 GMT
^ Well, elephants have brains 8 times larger than humans'... But who is smarter? And I still think carnotaurus skin wouldn't be hard to pierce. Just because it had some little bony scutes here and there, doesn't mean you couldn't pierce the belly, under the neck, etc. These scales and scutes are an effective armor. The DO protect these animals against the claws and teeth of other animals. That's why they have armor. It isn't just for decoration, and it is only easy to stab through in comics, films and games devloped for moron-level human mentalities. And how do you propose you could get close enough to a Carnosaur to poke it with a stick in the first place? Their acute sense of smell would thwart any attempt to sneak up on one, and only a comic book hero would dare to do so, certainly no real person would unless they were totally insane. Do you know why the dragon in the old Medieval St. George paintings is usually no bigger than a goat? It is because nobody back then was so stupid as to believe a person, even a Saint, could possibly kill such a dangerous beast if it was any bigger. You see, people back then didn't have comic books and video games. They really knew how effective their weapons were, and how dangerous wild animals were, unlike people today with their inflated opinions of what a person could really do to such an animal spawned by over a half century of comic book nonsense.
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Post by [][][]cordylus[][][] on Jan 1, 2009 22:27:38 GMT
I admit I wasn't saying it was a fact, but I would have bet my life cats were smarter then crows. I look at my cat and he seems to have personality appears to be thinking...I see crows and see fast moving, emotionless animals...due to the fact that I have only dealt with them when I'm scaring them off of my lawn. ;D But when I read something from a source, I do defend it. Notice I didn't defend that crow statement at all because I had no proof, I just was so sure with myself crows weren't as smart. I like birds, but have never had much experience with them. I've only taken care of two baby mocking birds... Actually I'm not big on being perfect on this forum. I talk to you guys just like my friends...throwing out opinions and arguments and defying popular beliefs. ;D I don't want to edit my posts for grammar mistakes or anything. Thats how comfortable I am here. ;D But in any case, Tyrannosaurus had the largest brain of any dinosaur. It wasn't the best as far as the "Body size to brain capacity" ratio goes, but it was a bright theropod none the less. I don't find it hard to believe they were as smart as cats, as that caption says. Oh by the way, due to the Carnotaurus skin findings we know that at least some theropods had very thick skin. Plus being a reptile, scales are natural armor. It would be hard to pierce its skin. Just my two cents. I agree. The thick hide of dinosaur mummies, and particularly Carnotaurus suggest a virtually spear and arrowproof creature save for a very lucky shot in the eye. Before the invention of powerful modern rifles, mere 15 foot crocodiles were a terror in africa. There are accounts of musket balls bouncing off the hides of alligators. Some people believe the Leviathan of the Bible is no more than a crocodile, but even so, the account states that no weapon of bronze or iron can pierce its scales. The notion of humans hunting T-Rex with anything before 20th century technology is absurd. T-Rex was probably more intelligent than crocodiles, yet one crocodile in Africa is credited with killing over 300 people, in a place where every male over the age of 12 has a high powered rifle. It is nothing but pure unadulterated human ego to imagine humans overcoming something like a T-Rex without modern technology. I'm glad real scientists worked on jurassic park. If it was made by some of the people here, we probably would have seen stupid stuff like Rexes getting their heads chopped off by paleontologists armed with machetes. About alligators and pinky mice- Many captive reptiles get unhealthy when fed "pinkies", and they are VERY filling, especially to smaller reptiles. They have to digest bone, skin, and organs. And crocodile skin is VERY thin on their stomachs- A single swipe from a bear on an american alligator's stomach could kill the alligator. So sure, dinos could have had thick skin on their backs, but there would always be thin patches. And not all dinosaurs have good senses of smell, so you could sneak up on them.
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Post by ningishzida on Jan 1, 2009 23:01:21 GMT
I agree. The thick hide of dinosaur mummies, and particularly Carnotaurus suggest a virtually spear and arrowproof creature save for a very lucky shot in the eye. Before the invention of powerful modern rifles, mere 15 foot crocodiles were a terror in africa. There are accounts of musket balls bouncing off the hides of alligators. Some people believe the Leviathan of the Bible is no more than a crocodile, but even so, the account states that no weapon of bronze or iron can pierce its scales. The notion of humans hunting T-Rex with anything before 20th century technology is absurd. T-Rex was probably more intelligent than crocodiles, yet one crocodile in Africa is credited with killing over 300 people, in a place where every male over the age of 12 has a high powered rifle. It is nothing but pure unadulterated human ego to imagine humans overcoming something like a T-Rex without modern technology. I'm glad real scientists worked on jurassic park. If it was made by some of the people here, we probably would have seen stupid stuff like Rexes getting their heads chopped off by paleontologists armed with machetes. About alligators and pinky mice- Many captive reptiles get unhealthy when fed "pinkies", and they are VERY filling, especially to smaller reptiles. They have to digest bone, skin, and organs. And crocodile skin is VERY thin on their stomachs- A single swipe from a bear on an american alligator's stomach could kill the alligator. So sure, dinos could have had thick skin on their backs, but there would always be thin patches. And not all dinosaurs have good senses of smell, so you could sneak up on them. I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Pinkie mice would be easier for a reptile to digest than larger animals. Even the bones are not very hard yet and much easier to dissolve than those of larger animals. Humans would be much easier for a large carnosur to digest than huge chunks of larger dinosaurs, with much thicker hide and larger bones. Alligators do not beed to have a more armored belly because they are so low slung animals and no enemy on land would attack them there (except tarzan, but he's ficticious). But even here, Caimans have very tough belly scales by comparision. I recall a scientific show that used computer simulations that demonstrated that in a land battle, and adult nile crocodile was more likely to kill an adult lion in a fight, and I am sure a bear as well. But this is a 15 foot croc. True, a female, average 8 foot alligator will retreat before fighting an adult bear over its nest, though I have NEVER heard of a documented account of a bear EVER killing an adult alligator. I have little doubt that theropods with exposed bellies would have very tough scales there as well. People under rate the armor of reptiles because of all of the nonsensical fiction stories of brave jungle girls killing T-Rexes with bowie knives and similar such nonense. And again, I maintain that no human would ever get close enough to poke such an animal before be snatched up in its jaws. All Canosaurs have huge olfactory bulbs and accordingly, an excellent sense of smell. A stinking primate could never sneak up on one. Unbathed humans emit a horrible stench if not washed frenquently, and I doubt prehistoric humans cared much about cleanliness . I suppose prehistoric humans could have stunk so badly that a dinosaur might not want to eat one. But probably not, as many reptiles eat rotten carrion.
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Post by stoneage on Jan 2, 2009 23:31:01 GMT
;D Modern humans such as ningishzida probably wouldn't have a chance a Hell Creek. They would not have the skills or physical abilitys to live in the wild and survive. But primates that evolved along with the dinosaurs would. They would be smaller, faster and have more endurance then a modern human. They more then likely would hunt herbivores that were slow and stupid and could be ganged up on. They probably wouldn't hunt T-Rex but certainly could have outsmarted him. A human could run about the same speed as T-Rex and probably had greater endurance. Only if T-Rex surprized them would he be likely to get close enough to kill them. Humans probably would have stayed down wind from T-Rex and would have used the Forrest to hide in. Humans would probably have camps if places predators would have trouble reaching like high in trees. Dinosaurs were already in decline by this time. Small mammals that T-rex couldn't catch probably ate his eggs and lead to his extinction. With humans around this process would have taken even less time. ;D
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Post by Tyrannax on Jan 3, 2009 0:31:31 GMT
Well yes they could outsmart any animal..thats a fact, but smarts aren't everything. There comes a point when being smart, having only so many materials, and being faced with something so large that common knowledge has to come into play.
Primitive Homo Sapien:
Okay, I have a conscience, a stick with a rock tied to the end of it, and am faced with a 7 ton monster. Wait, wouldn't it be easier to hunt smaller animals and stay out of its way?
See? It makes no sense. Humans would have a very difficult time killing something using a spear. Besides, why kill it when you can hunt easier prey? Its nonsense. Outsmarting doesn't mean they can kill it. There comes a point when lack of resources keeps them from hurting something so massive. They were smart, which is why they would keep to their side of the area..away from Tyrannosaurus.
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Post by kuni on Jan 3, 2009 6:03:02 GMT
See, this is a nice silly speculative argument!
I'm not convinced that spears couldn't penetrate rex hide if they were tipped with obsidian points. Monomolecular edges are nasty! That being said, why not stay away, or kill juveniles and steal eggs? Or, just eat all the herbivores and then your carnivore problem takes care of itself!
(now I'm curious how croc hide would react to a thrown obsidian spear or atlatl...)
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